Dein - The Raven at Arsenal’s Tower of London? (1/8)

[I Hate Hleb]

GG also complained that certain directors were hanging out with players in nightclubs and undermining his authority, that's not likely to be Hill Wood and Ken Friar now is it?

NO. THEY WERE LIKELY TO BE SOMEWHERE ELSE MUCH MORE GRAND THAN A COMMON NIGHT CLUB!!

AND AS FOR UNDERMINING - DON'T YOU THINK SELLING MOST OF YOUR SHARES BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IT WAS WASTED MONEY WASN'T UNDERMINING THE CLUB?

[Cus Geezer]

LET ME REMIND THE AUTHOR THAT ARSENAL HAD SUFFERED OVER A DECADE OF MEDIOCRITY BEFORE DEIN JOINED, WITH ONLY ONE FA CUP WON AND EUROPEAN FOOTBALL ONLY ON THE ODD OCCASION. THE BOARD AT THE TIME HAD NO AMBITION AND NO INCLINATION TO MAKE US BETTER AND WERE HAPPY TO LIVE OFF ARSENAL'S FORMER GLORIES!

I wouldn't call nine finals in twelve years mediocre.

Let me remind you the FA Cup was on a par with the league in terms of honour back then. In 1979 there were only 3 games shown live all season, runaway champions Liverpool were not in any of them.

Reaching 4 televised finals in 3 years would have given Arsenal great exposure in the late 70s.

[Cus Geezer]

NO. THEY WERE LIKELY TO BE SOMEWHERE ELSE MUCH MORE GRAND THAN A COMMON NIGHT CLUB!!

AND AS FOR UNDERMINING - DON'T YOU THINK SELLING MOST OF YOUR SHARES BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IT WAS WASTED MONEY WASN'T UNDERMINING THE CLUB?

Your missing the point. How does a manager do his job and keep players in line if they are close friends with his paymaster?

[I Hate Hleb]

9 FINALS IN 12 YEARS? WHAT SINCE 1973? WHICH IS THE DECADE BEFORE DEIN CAME ON BOARD THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT?

AND BLOODY HELL CUS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ARSENAL HERE, NOT FUCKING SPURS!! THEY ARE THE *word censored* THAT USE TO BRAG ABOUT HOW MANY FA CUPS THEY HAD WON - EVEN WHEN IT WAS POINTED OUT TO THEM THAT THEY TRAILED ARSENAL IN THE NUMBER OF LEAGUE TITLES SECURED.

YES THE FA CUP WAS VERY IMPORTANT BACK IN THE OLD DAYS - WHEN THE GAME WAS MUCH MORE INSULAR, MAY I ADD. HOWEVER, ARSENAL WERE THE CLUB WITH THE MOST CHAMPIONSHIPS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEVENTIES AND THAT WAS WHAT THE CLUB ASPIRED TO WIN EVERY SEASON.

YET, I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT DEIN AND GRAHAM . ACCORDING TO G.G.'S BOOK - WHICH I'VE JUST HAD A GLANCE AT - DAVID DEIN DID NOT PLAY A PART IN BRINGING GRAHAM TO ARSENAL. APPARENTLY, IT WAS A SUGGESTION MADE TO PETER HILL-WOOD BY TERRY VENABLES, WHO HAD JUST TURNED DOWN THE JOB.

[Cus Geezer]

9 FINALS IN 12 YEARS? WHAT SINCE 1973? WHICH IS THE DECADE BEFORE DEIN CAME ON BOARD THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT?

No 9 finals between 1968 and 1980. Dein came on board in 1983, Arsenal were 3rd in 1981 and 5th in 1982.

Not quite like Fulham or Everton really is it?

[I Hate Hleb]

NO. THEY WERE LIKELY TO BE SOMEWHERE ELSE MUCH MORE GRAND THAN A COMMON NIGHT CLUB!!

AND AS FOR UNDERMINING - DON'T YOU THINK SELLING MOST OF YOUR SHARES BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IT WAS WASTED MONEY WASN'T UNDERMINING THE CLUB?

Your missing the point. How does a manager do his job and keep players in line if they are close friends with his paymaster?

DON'T REMEMBER THEM DOING THAT BADLY DURING THE 1986 - 95 PERIOD!!

[Cus Geezer]

I think he had the balls to make this observation on arrival and confront the board about it.

It's mentioned in his autobiography

[I Hate Hleb]

Arsenal were 3rd in 1981 and 5th in 1982.

Not quite like Fulham or Everton really is it?

AND YOU WERE HAPPY WITH THAT, WERE YOU? AND WHAT ABOUT ARSENAL'S LEAGUE POSITION IN THE YEARS THAT PRECEDED THEM?

AS FOR THE COMPARING US WITH FULHAM? ARE YOU HAVING A LAUGH?? EVERTON, WHICH UNLIKE FULHAM, WERE A SIMILAR SIZED CLUB TO US AT THE TIME, WON MORE TITLES AND REACHED MORE FA CUP FINALS THAN ARSENAL IN THE EIGHTIES. OH, AND THEY WON A EUROPEAN TITLE TO BOOT!!

No 9 finals between 1968 and 1980.

FROM MY ELEMENTARY KNOWLEDGE OF MATHS 83 - 10 = 73!! THUS THE DECADE BEFORE DEIN CAME ON BOARD COMMENCED IN 1973 NOT 1968!!

[Galasso]

YET, NO-ONE WAS BEING FORCED TO BUY ONE!! AND BY ALL ACCOUNTS, THOSE THAT DID - WHICH EXCLUDES ME I HASTEN TO ADD - HAVE MADE A GOOD RETURN ON THEIR INITIAL INVESTMENT IN TERMS OF CHEAPER SEAT PRICES (SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG ABOUT THAT).

IHH

So how would you feel then if the house you were living in and paying a mortgage on, and the bank came to your door and said you have to stump up an unexpected lump-sum payment to stay in the house, as well as keeping up the mortgage payments.

Nobody was being forced to but the North Bank was not just a fucking choice of where to buy your milk. No wonder we don't have a great atmosphere - the solidarity between fans at our club is non-existent.

It may have been rewarding in terms of cheaper season tickets. Great! But some of us couldn't afford the lump sum at the time. So we had to move out of our house and find another place.

So well done to the 3000-4000 who bought a bond - thanks for the support. Us who tried to battle against it appreciate the Thatcherite economic sentiment behind this whole shitty episode. MONEY MAKES MONEY. IF YOU DONT HAVE ENOUGH, THEN TOUGH SHIT.

And, as Cus mentioned, GG was 3rd or 4th down the list behind Fat Tel and others.

[donaldo]

Cus Geezer
5 titles 5 FA Cups 2 league cups 1 CWC and a CL final since Dein joined the club.

And he gave us the great Arsene Wenger the manager none of us had ever heard of.

Big clubs win titles they dont just reach finals(we lost 3 out of 4 finals between 78 and 80).We were a run of the mill club 20 years ago now we are one of Europes elite.The last 10 years we have finished 8 times in the top 2 and twice in the top 4. That is something we could not dream about 20 years ago.

As for getting rid of Don Howe in an unArsenal like manner any fan around at the time will tell you we were playing the worst football we had ever seen and gates were regularly under 20,000 sometimes under 15,000.It took George Graham to put pride back into the club and get us winning league titles again.

[I Hate Hleb]

GALASSO,

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? IT'S NOTHING LIKE HAVING A MORTGAGE!! NO-ONE WAS FORCED TO STUMP UP A BIG PAYMENT OR ELSE LOSE THEIR PROPERTY!! AND WHO THREW ANYONE OUT?? I STILL MANAGED TO GET A PLACE ON THE NORTH BANK, WHICH I HAD BEEN ATTENDING AND STANDING ON SINCE 1968!! AND IF I COULDN'T, I WENT INTO THE CLOCKEND, OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE GROUND!!

I ALSO COULDN'T AFFORD TO BUY A BOND, BUT NO-ONE STOPPED ME FROM COMING TO MATCHES WHEN I WANTED TO - AND I'VE BEEN PISS-POOR MOST OF MY LIFE!!

YES, THE BOND ISSUE WAS VERY DEVISIVE AND PERSONALLY I WAS AGAINST IT. BUT THE AUTHOR OF THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE AND SUBSEQUENT POSTERS ON HERE HAVE TRIED TO MAKE OUT THAT BECAUSE OF THAT, IT PROVED DEIN WASN'T A REAL SUPPORTER AND DIDN'T HAVE THE CLUB'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART WHEN MAKING DECISIONS. AND I THINK THAT IS JUST PURE BULL-SHIT!

DESPITE THE BOND AND THE NEW STADIUM/ KROENKE FIASCOS, DAVID DEIN HAS PROVEN THAT HE IS A GOONER AND HAS MADE A VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION TO THE SUCCESS OF ARSENAL SINCE HE JOINED THE BOARD IN 1983.

SORRY, BUT ANYONE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE IS JUST TALKING NON-SENSE!!

AND AS FOR THE ATMOSPHERE - LIKE I SAID ON AN EARLIER POST - THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT LOOK BACK TO THE 'GOOD OLD DAYS' WITH FAILING MEMORY AND ROSE-TINTED GLASSES ON!!

AND WHAT THE HELL HAS G.G. BEING 3RD OR 4TH CHOICE AS MANAGER GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING??

[Cus Geezer]

Firstly can I make a polite request for IHH to turn off his caps lock because it's doing my head in.

AS FOR THE COMPARING US WITH FULHAM? ARE YOU HAVING A LAUGH?? EVERTON, WHICH UNLIKE FULHAM, WERE A SIMILAR SIZED CLUB TO US AT THE TIME, WON MORE TITLES AND REACHED MORE FA CUP FINALS THAN ARSENAL IN THE EIGHTIES. OH, AND THEY WON A EUROPEAN TITLE TO BOOT!!

The point I'm making is that Arsenal were not perennially mid table in the period you were on about, Arsenal THEN were not like Fulham NOW. As for the Everton comparison, you neglect to point out that they have won one trophy in two decades. This may be comparable to Arsenal in 1953-71, it is not comparable to Arsenal in the 70s and early 80s.

FROM MY ELEMENTARY KNOWLEDGE OF MATHS 83 - 10 = 73!! THUS THE DECADE BEFORE DEIN CAME ON BOARD COMMENCED IN 1973 NOT 1968!!

Well pal if your gonna nit pick.......

Arsenal were 2nd in the league in 1973 and Cup Semi Finalists and still reached three consecutive Cup finals and a Cup Winners Cup Final. Ask today's supporters of big supported sides like Everton, Spuds or Man City if they'll think that's the end of the world.

As for getting rid of Don Howe in an unArsenal like manner any fan around at the time will tell you we were playing the worst football we had ever seen and gates were regularly under 20,000 sometimes under 15,000.It took George Graham to put pride back into the club and get us winning league titles again.



You don't need to inform me of this I was an Arsenal fan of the time. I'm not arguing that getting rid of Howe was the wrong thing to do. The lining up of Venables was the reason why he jumped rather than was pushed and the manner in which he was got rid of was not like that of the old guard of Hill Wood and Co. I'm suspecting that Dein was instrumental and wanted Venables and had no intention of bringing in George Graham and cannot take the credit for his appointment, as was suggested by IHH.

[/quote] Cus Geezer
5 titles 5 FA Cups 2 league cups 1 CWC and a CL final since Dein joined the club.

And he gave us the great Arsene Wenger the manager none of us had ever heard of.


Personally I think this is more accident than design.

We've already established that he was not instrumental in bringing GG to the club, this is when the modern Arsenal of title winning stuff began. Arsene Wenger has continued this success but won his first title with at least six of GG's old players. To quote Isaac Newton, Wenger had achieved great things by standing on the shoulder of giants.

It's a bit rich that David Dein can claim credit for getting the ball rolling in that department. It's like the Flaming Moe episode of the Simpsons, when asked the idea was really Homer's he replied 'yeah but it was my idea to charge an extortionate price for it'.

Also note that it was incredibly lucky that the next footballing genius was in the place that many a self made millionaire hangs out, in Monaco. This is not like discovering Shankly at (de)Preston North End or Ferguson at East Stirlingshire is it folks?

[rolypoly]

mr dyer see my thread on the main forum headed a message to david dein. until you came along i thought i was the only one who did not regard dein as the messiah.

having said that i do think he did a lot of good for the club and on a personal level i know he sorted out some problems i have had with the arrogant muppets in middle management that are at the club

[Cus Geezer]

May I also note that sneering at the board of the 70s and early 80s in wanting to keep that club stable and lacking ambition is an incredibly cheap shot. Especially when taking into account that this was not a period in which Sky was throwing money around.

The Football league got peanuts for their coverage because ITV and the Beeb were in a cartel to hold the prices down and this was shared between all 92 clubs, not just 20 as it is today. Let's be entrely honest here, Premiership money has distorted Arsenal's (and Liverpool's, and Man Ure's and the Chavs, it may have continued Leeds if they had any business sanity) record in the last

And in totally discounting the Arsenal side of the 70s achievements you seem to be demanding a level of success that only Liverpool had at this time.

Remember that Derby, Man Ure and Aston Villa were all relegated within 10 years of winning the title (the latter two even won the European Cup). Arsenal can 16th in 1975 and 17th in 1976, bad but not relegation.

The Spuds had started the 70s well, even winning the UEFA Cup but they were relegated.

Forest won the league and two European Cups, but were nowhere in the mid 70s. By the 80s they were fairly average and never looked like winning titles again, even when rejuvenated in the late 80s.

Being a top five club year in, year out for a whole decade simply didn't happen to many clubs in the 70s, what were you expecting of that side?

[Galasso]

GALASSO,

WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? IT'S NOTHING LIKE HAVING A MORTGAGE!! NO-ONE WAS FORCED TO STUMP UP A BIG PAYMENT OR ELSE LOSE THEIR PROPERTY!! AND WHO THREW ANYONE OUT?? I STILL MANAGED TO GET A PLACE ON THE NORTH BANK, WHICH I HAD BEEN ATTENDING AND STANDING ON SINCE 1968!! AND IF I COULDN'T, I WENT INTO THE CLOCKEND, OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE GROUND!!

I ALSO COULDN'T AFFORD TO BUY A BOND, BUT NO-ONE STOPPED ME FROM COMING TO MATCHES WHEN I WANTED TO - AND I'VE BEEN PISS-POOR MOST OF MY LIFE!!

YES, THE BOND ISSUE WAS VERY DEVISIVE AND PERSONALLY I WAS AGAINST IT. BUT THE AUTHOR OF THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE AND SUBSEQUENT POSTERS ON HERE HAVE TRIED TO MAKE OUT THAT BECAUSE OF THAT, IT PROVED DEIN WASN'T A REAL SUPPORTER AND DIDN'T HAVE THE CLUB'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART WHEN MAKING DECISIONS. AND I THINK THAT IS JUST PURE BULL-SHIT!

DESPITE THE BOND AND THE NEW STADIUM/ KROENKE FIASCOS, DAVID DEIN HAS PROVEN THAT HE IS A GOONER AND HAS MADE A VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION TO THE SUCCESS OF ARSENAL SINCE HE JOINED THE BOARD IN 1983.

SORRY, BUT ANYONE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE IS JUST TALKING NON-SENSE!!

AND AS FOR THE ATMOSPHERE - LIKE I SAID ON AN EARLIER POST - THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT LOOK BACK TO THE 'GOOD OLD DAYS' WITH FAILING MEMORY AND ROSE-TINTED GLASSES ON!!

AND WHAT THE HELL HAS G.G. BEING 3RD OR 4TH CHOICE AS MANAGER GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING??

IHH

I thought I made myself pretty clear. Firstly I was disagreeing with something you said (the paragraph I quoted). I was using the house bit to explain how it felt (emotions, fire in the belly) for some of us. Of course we didn't HAVE to buy a bond but this is very simple: Arsenal wanted to sell 12000 bonds. So that means that 12000 people paying minimum lump sum of £1100. In a fucking recession! If you didnt pay, you couldnt get in. Starts at the North Bank - and where do you think it would end? THAT IS MY SIMPLE POINT. DO YOU THINK IF THEY HAD BEEN ABLE TO FIND 35000 PEOPLE WILLING TO DO THIS THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BITTEN THEIR HANDS OFF?

But because it was such a total fuck-up, they could not go through with their plan. We were being offered the ultimatum - Buy a bond - get a season ticket - or you can wait.

The rest of your reply I mostly agree with.

And the GG bit - you suggested that Dein bought GG to the club in the same post. I since have read that you have cleared this up.