I wonder what he's thinking now?

[T.S]

So it's gone from Henry not being a team player, to the fact that he wasn't a good captain. Which one is your main problem with the man?

Look, this is getting ridiculous. My point is this; We have won 3 out of 4 games so far this season, none of which were against teams who have any chance of finishing above us. I would advise you and everyone else of the opinion that our team is now clearly a much stronger unit to be careful about crowing too much. It's all very easy to go along with the "thank God Henry's gone...I always thought he was bad for the 'team'" thing when times are good, but I wonder if it will still apply when we have to go up north for a cup tie in January, or something?

The fact is, I don't know and neither do you. If you want to get ahead of yourself, then go ahead. Have a blast. I, on the other hand grew out of that a long time ago. Do excuse me if I seem curt, but the fickle nature of many of the posters on here who get way ahead of themselves every time something positive happens really, really annoys me.

[Cus Geezer]

So it's gone from Henry not being a team player, to the fact that he wasn't a good captain. Which one is your main problem with the man?

Look, this is getting ridiculous. My point is this; We have won 3 out of 4 games so far this season, none of which were against teams who have any chance of finishing above us. I would advise you and everyone else of the opinion that our team is now clearly a much stronger unit to be careful about crowing too much. It's all very easy to go along with the "thank God Henry's gone...I always thought he was bad for the 'team'" thing when times are good, but I wonder if it will still apply when we have to go up north for a cup tie in January, or something?

Just a few points

1) I would think that being a good team player and a good captain were intertwined surely.

2) Although those sides have no chance of finishing above us, last season we had no trouble with teams that finished above us, we held are own against Chelsea in three games last year, Henry never played once. we beat Man Ure at Old Trafford without Henry. In a mini league with the top four teams we finished top last season. Our problems last year came against sides that finished below us, i.e. Bolton, Blackburn, Everton, West Ham, Sheffield United, Portsmouth. The fact we've finished off minnow sides with relative ease has some significance.

3) And as for big cup ties, didn't Henry go missing in some importance big games that we've faced.

Yes I'd rather he were still here, doing what he did in 2004. Sadly if he were still here we'd get more of the moody behaviour of last year, probably chewing Wenger's ears about signing more big names. Scowling at some young player for not passing to him.

He's buggered off to all star Barca, with bagged a few million, our developing player has a mentor with a bit more positive advice, life moves on.

[IW8Goalmachine]

Do excuse me if I seem curt, but the fickle nature of many of the posters on here who get way ahead of themselves every time something positive happens really, really annoys me.

isn't that what supporting your team is about instead of staying on the negative all the time. please forgive us but after all the doom and gloom of the summer its nice to see something good happening

[T.S]

IW8Goalmachine: No, getting ahead of yourself and building yourself up for a big fall is not what supporting your team is about. Just because I don't think everything is fine and wonderful because the demon Henry has been expunged and that lovely guy Cesc who was being held back has now gone on a 'scoring spree', it doesn't mean I'm not a 'supporter'.

I am entitled to my opinion and this is it. I will continue to go to every (home) game regardless of whether I think what we are doing is positive or not. That is what supporting a team is all about. Although I don't doubt that fans like Cus Geezer are true supporters, I would not call his getting ahead of himself a perfect example of what supporting a team is all about.

I know Augie knows what I'm talking about! Augie...?

[Magic Hat]

Does, I was positive before we started, count as my defence?

We have started well but while it is arguable if Henry leaving will free up the youngsters, he was a great great player and anyone in the world will miss that, we have started well in terms of results if not always performance but we have a long road ahead, we need to keep getting results and it will be after the ACF when we can really get greatly optimistic.

[gunners-need-steel]

I think its OK to celebrate the positive start to the season ... but its also important that we dont get carried away, because we still have a long way to go and the more serious challenges yet to come ... that seems to me to be what TS is saying .. so, I am not sure why Mr Geezer is getting hot under the collar about TS's opinions ...

we are yet to go thru the CL group stages, local derbys with chev$kis and the scum, vital head-to-heads with manure and livershit, and tough matches against recent good teams like aston villa/everton/newcastle/etc ... so, we certainly need to keep our feet on the ground while celebrating ...

As for Henry's absence, I have always said it was a great thing that he left .. I reckon the team is better for it .. but I dont expect he will be bemoaning the fact that we are doing well .. he remains a gooner, but his mind was no longer here and he neded a new challenge ... For me, he will always remain an arse legend ...

[Belfast Boy]

IW8Goalmachine: No, getting ahead of yourself and building yourself up for a big fall is not what supporting your team is about. Just because I don't think everything is fine and wonderful because the demon Henry has been expunged and that lovely guy Cesc who was being held back has now gone on a 'scoring spree', it doesn't mean I'm not a 'supporter'.

I am entitled to my opinion and this is it. I will continue to go to every (home) game regardless of whether I think what we are doing is positive or not. That is what supporting a team is all about. Although I don't doubt that fans like Cus Geezer are true supporters, I would not call his getting ahead of himself a perfect example of what supporting a team is all about.

I know Augie knows what I'm talking about! Augie...?

I don't think that anyone is getting carried away and as for sayin stuff like "we are a stronger unit without him" is this not why AW sold him, and do you not agree in any way at all, cos altho we will always miss the Henry of old and will be extremely fortunate to ever enjoy a player of his calibre again, there is no doubting that something had to give cos all was not well, and the one point I'd make is that even tho we are missing his firepower, we lost it long before he left, but we now seem to be winning matches thru resilience!

[Hagbard 23]

Thierry, in my humble opinion, was the greatest player ever] to wear the Arsenal shirt, and some of the comments made by Gooners recently on this forum and others leave me quite speechless.

There seem to be a lot of supporters with VERY SHORT MEMORIES. There is a lot of bad-mouthing going on towards a player who gave his best years to this club, and he brought the attention of the world to Arsenal fc.

But as Belfast Boy put it ...

we will always miss the Henry of old and will be extremely fortunate to ever enjoy a player of his calibre again, there is no doubting that something had to give cos all was not well...

Any team would miss the services of TH but for whatever reason (i dont think we will ever know the full story) it was time for him to go.

So instead of petty bad-mouthing I would wish the guy good luck and thanks for the MANY happy memories he has left us all with.

As for our progress without him, yes it's been a fairly good start to the campaign, and the team spirit does seem better than it was, but a few timely hugs in the centre circle, for myself at least, does not prove anything. The cynic in me suggests this was a P.R stunt. But hey, thats just grumpy Hagbards typically negative view!!

Anyway lads I suggest that we ressurrect this thread in say January/February time and we'll see if you have the same points of view then.

We will see...

[Rilo II]

Christ. Here we go again. Boys, beating Sparta Prague, Man City, Portsmouth and Fulham does not prove that we're a stronger unit without Henry.

Considering we dropped 3, 4 and 3 points respectively to those premiership teams you have named last season, I think it's reasonable to be happy with getting 9 points from them so far this season. No, it's not proof we are stronger without Henry, but it certainly is looking good.

The way I see it, all the problems we had last season - dropping points to teams we should be beating, lack of goals from midfield, not able to finish - seem to have been improved this season. Of course, no one can say whether this is a direct result of Henry leaving, but things are certainly looking better for us this season.

Mr Saunders you are right in that there is a long way to go and we have an awful lot of challenges ahead, so no one should get carried away, but at the same time there are a lot of positives to take out of the season so far, so there is no reason at all not to be optomistic. Fact is we've won 3 from 4, and were unlucky to drop points against Blackburn. We may not have beaten Chelsea, Utd or Liverpool, but as the saying goes "you can only beat what's put in front of you".

[donaldo]

I didn"t hear many fans say Henry wasn"t a team player in 2002 and the Invincible year and when he was scoring 30 goals a season,He wasn"t a good captain i agree and last season he was poor(Maybe because he wasn"t fit) but people have short memories when they talk about Henry now.

[T.S]

To the last three posters; thank you for talking sense.

[gunners-need-steel]

Just want to clarify my take on Henry leaving ...

No doubt Henry has arguably been our greatest ever player .. certainly our greatest ever goal getter .. and will forever remain a legend.

However, all through last season, even towards the end of 2005/06 season, it was plainly obvious to me that he lacked the passion/enthusiasm to perform for arsenal up to the best of his ability ... he did score many important goals through this 'bad' period, and that underlines the top-quality of the man .. that even when his heart was not in it, he could still do better than many so-called top-rated strikers ... If Th14 had been his usual hungry self, we would certainly have won the CL final because he did miss some sitters that day ...

Even before he was sold, while chatting with a friend, I shocked him by saying that if I was AW, I will sell TH14 ... so, I was quite chuffed when he was indeed sold ... My wanting him gone does not take away from his legend status .. I felt that the team needed to move on from that era, and he himself needed to move in so as to rediscover his passion and enthusiasm for the game for his own sake ... there was no use his forcing himself to hang around out of loyalty to the club, when it was obvious he would prefer new challenges ...

I suppose, another school of thought could say that if arsenal attracted the right sort of world class players, he would have been happier to stay .. perhaps, this might have been the case, but AW has not operated that way and even if he wanted to change to accommodate TH14, the going rate of the class of players TH14 would need to appease him would probably be beyond what AW would want to pay ...

As to his team leadership qualities, I thought he hadn't handled the captaincy that well, but that does not take away from his impact as a player .. I faulted him as a captain for his tendency to sulk, and not manage adverse situations with gritty determination .. Captaincy should be given to players more for their personalities as leaders, rather than based on skill level or mere seniority in a team.

Having rambled thru all that, I have no doubt in my mind that the guy still has arsenal close to his heart, and as he said, will remain a fan for ever ... so, I will never bad-mouth him, and implore all other gooners to stop sounding like he was bad news ...

sorry for the lengthy post ..

[Cus Geezer]

Just want to clarify my take on Henry leaving ...

No doubt Henry has arguably been our greatest ever player .. certainly our greatest ever goal getter .. and will forever remain a legend.

However, all through last season, even towards the end of 2005/06 season, it was plainly obvious to me that he lacked the passion/enthusiasm to perform for arsenal up to the best of his ability ... he did score many important goals through this 'bad' period, and that underlines the top-quality of the man .. that even when his heart was not in it, he could still do better than many so-called top-rated strikers ... If Th14 had been his usual hungry self, we would certainly have won the CL final because he did miss some sitters that day ...

Even before he was sold, while chatting with a friend, I shocked him by saying that if I was AW, I will sell TH14 ... so, I was quite chuffed when he was indeed sold ... My wanting him gone does not take away from his legend status .. I felt that the team needed to move on from that era, and he himself needed to move in so as to rediscover his passion and enthusiasm for the game for his own sake ... there was no use his forcing himself to hang around out of loyalty to the club, when it was obvious he would prefer new challenges ...

I suppose, another school of thought could say that if arsenal attracted the right sort of world class players, he would have been happier to stay .. perhaps, this might have been the case, but AW has not operated that way and even if he wanted to change to accommodate TH14, the going rate of the class of players TH14 would need to appease him would probably be beyond what AW would want to pay ...

As to his team leadership qualities, I thought he hadn't handled the captaincy that well, but that does not take away from his impact as a player .. I faulted him as a captain for his tendency to sulk, and not manage adverse situations with gritty determination .. Captaincy should be given to players more for their personalities as leaders, rather than based on skill level or mere seniority in a team.

Note to Tony Saunders - this is talking sense

[T.S]

Thanks for the note, but I am fully aware that Gunners-Need-Steel is, as per usual, talking sense. However, this does not mean that the aforementioned 'three posters' were not. In fact, GNS and the other three that I mentioned were talking about separate things.

The posters I mentioned were talking about either the team or the fact that some of the people on this thread were bad mouthing him and therefore, had short memories. I thought that all three posts were extremely accurate.

However, GNS's post was more about TH and his reasons for moving on and how we should view him now. Rather than getting all hot under the collar like you did and moaning about his temperament etc, he took the time to acknowledge what was so great about the man and how he will live forever as an Arsenal legend. So in actual fact, you're right; he was talking a lot of sense.

So thanks for the very well written post, GNS. You're fast becoming one of the posters I look forward to hearing from on here.

[Cus Geezer]

I didn"t hear many fans say Henry wasn"t a team player in 2002 and the Invincible year and when he was scoring 30 goals a season

Let's not forget that the sides of 2002 and 2004 were entirely different circumstances to 2007/8. Most of the side then were older or Henry's peers, even more the case when you look at the attacking players. His concerns were entirely around his own performance and in that situation he thrived.

Yes Henry is the greatest individual talent the club has ever seen yet without Pires, Bergkamp and Veira Henry needed to step up to a mentoring role with younger up and coming players, like Adebayor, Rosicky, Walcott whether he liked it or not. Unlike Cantona for United in 1996 he failed to do so.

He's gone of to a club where like Arsenal prior to 2005, he is surrounded by experience and only has to worry about his own performance, unlike the Arsenal of 2007. There is no evidence that Henry is a team player, as opposed to an indivdualistic one.

And there were signs that Henry had this individualist and petulant streak in him prior to becoming captain, think of his reaction when Lauren didn't pass to him late on against Man Utd. in 2004. Rumour has it that this turned into an angry confrontation in the dressing room.

Yes you may be a very good player, but a squad revolves around fifteen players not just one very talented one. Wenger was right to cash in on Henry because although in 2005/6 he was a big part of the solution, by 2006/7 he was becoming a big part of the problem.