Takeover talk

[REB]

i take your points about dd, but its going 2 happen like it or not,, dd lost a lot of friends when he went 2 bed with the russian but this has been done 2 death at this stage,,i agree with augie in that i dont feel the current board will take us where we want 2 go, and that is on the field of play which 2 me is the most important part of the club, we were badly behind in last 2 seasons and i dont want that 2 continue,, and dont forget why we are second richest club in the world, its because we pay £30 just 2 hav the right 2 buy a ticket and season tickets that are the dearest in the world.. i payed £66 for my ticket the last match i went too, and that was on top of my red membership,,

[26may1989]

Rebel, I'm happier with the board than you but I do understand your points, they're all fair. BUT it would be a disaster for Usmanov/DD to succeed, we should unite against that, even if we have different views on the alternatives.

[REB]

Rebel, I'm happier with the board than you but I do understand your points, they're all fair. BUT it would be a disaster for Usmanov/DD to succeed, we should unite against that, even if we have different views on the alternatives.

ONE MANS TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER
we agree 2 disagree

[TheOne2Smooth]

could you trust this man?

[augie]

26/5/89, the progress we have made over the last few years has been down to wenger and has been in spite of the board and not because of them. As for biglunn I would have to say that you must have a very short sighted and simplistic view of all things Arsenal - yes it is great to be top after 5 games but dont start lording it up on the basis of that. If you want to go down that stats route I could say to you that over the last 2 seasons we have finished over a combined 40 points behind the winners and in one of those seasons we were nearly beaten to a champs lge place by a small mickey mouse outfit up the road so that is a measure of how off the pace we were. I will also say that we have a good young team with potential now but where they will be in 2 or 3 years time or who they will be playing for then is anybodys guess especially when you consider our ability(lack of) to hold onto our best players. It is very easy to be one of the richest clubs in the world when you do not invest in your playing squad and have a manager that keeps pulling miracles out of his hat to hide the lack of investment. I also believe that history will show that wenger was very anti foreign ownership a few years ago but changed his tune and publicly stated that if several clubs were owned by foreigners with unlimited cash then we would be left behind if we could not match them.

Finally I would like to ask 26may1989 that seeing as you would like wenger to come out publicly opposing the russian would would you do if he came out in support the DD/Usmanov/Kroenke alliance ? Like Rebel and a few more shrewd people on this forum I also believe that Wenger is being kept up to speed on events by DD and signed his contract with full knowledge.

[26may1989]

Hello Augie. Well, I know, I'm not very shrewd....

You're right, Wenger has changed his tune and did recently say we might need to rethink our approach to having a money-bags billionaire in 4 or 5 years, if things have moved onto another economic level. BUT he said that is not necessary now and he doesn't need that level of funding in the foreseeable future. Sounds pretty reasonable to me, esp when we've got an income higher than Man U, Chelsea, Barca, Milan, Juve etc etc.

In any event, I don't think the immediate issue is really about sticking with the board or selling to a billionaire (foreign or not): it's about Usmanov. I honestly think it would be disastrous if he gets control of the club. I don't really believe Wenger cares that much about Dickhead Dein - I'm sure he likes a meal and a drink with him but not much more than that, given the financial position of the club and Dein's sell-out to Usmanov.

I don't think there is an Usmanov/Dein/Kroenke alliance, just one between Dein and Usmanov. Kroenke, having been courted by Dein initially as Dein's vehicle to oust Hill-Wood, Edelman and Fiszman, decided not to go with Dein and has looked for a more co-operative relationship with the board. Of course, alliances shift, and Kroenke may yet join U&D, or sell to them, but there's been nothing to suggest linkage between them yet.

But if Wenger came out and said "Usmanov is the answer to all our troubles " (some troubles), I would have to rethink what I've said. I might even have to admit to being wrong...

The question is, what will you and the shrewd crowd do when Usmanov rocks into town and starts throwing his considerable weight around? You don't seriously think his only interest is in making Dein chairman and pumping the club with money. He has objectives, and, given his background, I worry that those objectives can do nothing but harm to us.

If you want to campaign for billionaire take-over, I don't it's necessary, but fair play to you. But this one is not the answer, we all need to fight it.

[Magic Hat]

The board have done well for us in my view, I know being financially sound and only having potential meaning some upsetting years where we only got to cup finals isn't not the stuff of dreams or what we are used to, another 4th place finish would be horrible but I think we have enough to fight for the title this season, we have a great stadium and while the board may be a little slow to grasp onto new idea's, the "don't put the club in debt" outside of the new staduim leaves the club in healthy hands.

Arsene won't spend the money unless he really wants something, I hardly remember his comments of late backing Dein or the Russian and I fail to see how putting us at the mercy of one chairman is ever a good idea. Let alone this guy.

Just my personal view, I understand and respect the other view.

[26may1989]

The trouble is Magic, it just doesn't sound as good (or is it shrewd?) to say you think the board have done a good job.

[dvbrisgooner1]

I want DD back tho I would prefer it 2 be with kroenke than the russian. I keep hoping (silly i know) that the russian is just a decoy to get the board to open up to stan. I think most people(not all) that vote for the current board are doing so out of fear of the russian more than out of endorsement of hillwood,fizsman & co. To be honest I believe the current board are incapable of driving this club forward with or without money

This Club has survived since 1886. David Dein arrived in 1983 at an outlay of around £250,000. To say that this Club needs Dein is a ridiculous idea. To suggest that "the current board is incapable of driving the club forward" shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the people who are Arsenal Football Club Director's. If they are incapable of driving us forward, then who built the new stadium? It certainly wasn't David Dein, who opposed the move and wanted us to go to Wembley instead!

I am happy to tell Dein and his cronies to fuck off - this Club does not need you.

[Cus Geezer]

do you not think wenger signed a contract without knowing his best friend dein was about 2 come back,,, come on guys wake up, there best friends and you can be sure wenger tells dein whats happening and also the other way round

Oh FFS!!!!

The way the pro-Dein camp portray their relationship I half expect them to share a bed like Morecambe and Wise used to.

I've expressed my view about Dein so often I bored shitless by this discussion. I'm still praying to the almighty lord that Dein meets a grisly end by tripping over in the street and impaling himself on his rouble infested wallet.

[I Hate Hleb]

YEAH, BUT THAT WOULD SURELY BE A SOFT LANDING CUS - CONSIDERING HIS WALLET IS NOW FILLED WITH £75 MILLION NOTES!!

NOT SURE THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN OR WANT FOR DEIN!!

[augie]

I love it (not ) when some fans start throwing history at me as a reason for opposing any takeover when history shows me there is a need for a change in the boardroom.

I'm not getting into a pissing contest here (over who has supported the club the longest or shit like that) but I can clearly remember the shambles of a club we had when DD joined all those years ago. We had all this "bank of england club" & "the arsenal way" crap but as a club we were poor on the pitch and absolutely udderless off it. I know that DD invested what in todays terms is peanuts but back then probably wasnt but in the 20 odd years since he has played a HUGE part in making the club as successful as it is today. Yes he opposed Ashburton Grove on the grounds that it would hit our ability to be competitive on the pitch and while he may have been right about the 2nd part I also agree that he was wrong on the 1st part. However that does not disguise the good stuff he has contributed to our club and the job he did for us helped us get a seat at the big boys table(G14) and him places on both the fa & G14. He persued wenger when nobody & I mean nobody had ever heard of him and the decision alone has boosted this club beyond belief. Do any of ye honestly believe that when arsene wenger leaves our club that there is anyone on this board capable off pulling off such a masterstroke ? Maybe our tax exile fizsman who rarely rarely attends a game nowadays ? Or maybe nina bracewell smith who by her own confession knows f*ck all about the game ? Or maybe our old etonian chairman who might appear to be a "little englander" (we dont want his sort) to some but more likely to be an old buffoon stuck in a timewarp and doesnt engage his brain before speaking.

It is laughable when some fans can make statements about how Arsenal has been around before DD and will survive long after him and that the club is bigger than 1 man cos these are the same arseholes that will tell you that the club would be f*cked if wenger hadnt signed the new contract. Which is it lads are we bigger than any 1 man or are we not ? The fact is these 2 people have been the most important servants to our club over the last 25 years and we cannot afford to lose either much less both. I have put it on the record before now that I am not in favour of usmanov and wish DD had not gone into partnership with him but I do believe that we need DD back & wenger wants him back. We cannot afford to be left behind by the other big clubs in the transfer market and if we believe that we are a big club then we need to show we are. The current board are only interested in balance sheets and it is no good having these great accounts showing progress off the pitch if we are falling behind on it(& dont give me any of that b*ll*x about being top of the league cos there is only 5 games gone and we havent played anyone of note yet). Do you honestly believe that we can keep up with the other big clubs if we continue to fail in investing in the playing squad ? Do you honestly think the likes of cesc will stay with us if they believe that we are not capable of investing in players to take us up a level or 2 ? Do you really believe that the current board are not interested in selling up or do you, like me, believe that they are willing to sell only not to DD ?

DD's sacking from the club was a disgrace imo and i could not believe how most fans seemed to accept it at the time. Now some believe that fans should protest at usmanov's involvement when in reality we should have protested at DD's sacking and maybe it would never have got to this point. The problem is that over the last few years we have never had it so good and fans either dont remenber the dark old days in the 80's or didnt support the club back then and know nothing about what it was like to support a club that was once great but had suffered a major fall from grace. Should we wait for another such fall from grace before turning against this board ? Should we wait and see what happens if we suffer a few more trophyless years and then start analysing where we started to fall behind instead of trying to rectify these areas now ? I would rather back a man who wants into the club(DD) for all the right reasons than support a man (fizsman) who wants out but wont sell for all the wrong reasons(vendetta against DD)

[Belfast Boy]

Jesus Christ Augie you are full of shit, before you come on here, callin people fools and arseholes, and labelling their opinions as something to laugh at, you should take a long hard look at your own position, because you are defending the indefensible!
I want to use this post not only to offer up another side to the debate but also to defend the board because you seem to have an almost pathalogical hatred for them and they are takin some highly unwarranted flak which as usual does not stand close scrutiny, but in the process I don't want to have a go at DD because it is true he is more of a grass roots fan than any of the other board members, but I feel these points need to be made - again
Everyone has the right to express their views but IMO your opinions are far too immoderate both in defence of DD and in your hostility toward the current board cos I have said many times before the truth of the matter is that neither extreme is true!
It could be argued that the only thing DD did of note for the club was bring in AW who of course he knew about because of his own knowledge and his travels, pursuing the interests of the club, because the only other alternative is open to accusations of hypocrisy in crediting him with waking the club out of it's stupor and getting things going on the merchandising front to compete with ManUre but in the same breath having a dig at Keith Edelman for copyrighting the crest???
As far as DD is concerned if you wanted to be cynical about his contribution, you could say that he is a power hungry person and loved the FA and G14 gigs as much for his own ends as for any perceived benefits it had for the club!
This argument is also not without precedent or foundation as it has been said many times before that DD's political ambition knows no bounds as he was also one of the major players in the formation of the EPL and that he had been trading within AFC on his outside influences and his highly successful appointment of AW for some time as once solid relationships had become strained because DD had become to big for his boots!
He more than likely, like yourself, had grown impatient or had no time for the other members of the board who stood in the way of his personal ambitions and designs for the club, and you can say what you want about the board, old school??? - probably....... stupid??? - absolutely no way, as I said in my previous post the principles of business of steady progress based on solid foundations have remained unchanged since the dawn of time and many who have tried to cut corners and circumvent them have sank without trace!
Even AW's stance on this issue is well documented and he quite clearly states, correctly IMHO that long term a club can only survive and prosper on it's own revenue and even he is showing signs of distancing himself from DD and looked distinctly uncomfortable when he was asked if it was indeed his old pal who had persuaded him to sign his new deal, as our former vice chair is taking credit for!
The one thing that would have been the disaster to top all disasters and infinitely worse than if AW walked out tomorrow, would have been for us to have moved to Wembley, you just can't say "oh DD's the man to take our club into the future" when he was proposing to fuckin wreck it, by making us homeless, and making us such a laughing stock that even the Spuds could've taken the high ground, we'd never heard the end of it, there really would have been only one club in N. London and would no longer have been us - so much for the derby - eh???
At the risk of repeating myself from previous threads, you just can't say "oh well, he got that one slightly wrong" - you can't get a little bit pregnant, this is exactly what happens when you dance with the devil and big business gets involved - it's "Jesus we could get 80,000 into the new national stadium on a groundshare and just pay them rent - woohoo" and are we gonna kid ourselves that match tickets and catering would be any cheaper there just cos it's out in the wilderness!
Now I am not privvy to DD's fears or objections but I can more or less guarantee that he was predicting instant and total disaster if the "bumbling fools" took on something as massive and hugely complex and therefore of course expensive, as The Grove Project, and then the board would forced to resign and he would ride in on his white horse and rescue us, but things didn't exactly transpire that way, and he became increasingly desperate culminating in his highly disappointing decision to sell his shares to Usmanov!
To me it's decisions like this that lay DD's motives open to question because he seems to have alienated every person on the board, and that is no mean feat seeing as I'm sure that they are under no doubt as to how much he has contributed over the years! Even the Chief Exec of the Premier League said that the minutes of the monthly meetings always produced 21 votes - 1 vote for each of the other 19 clubs and 2 for us as it became a regular feature that no matter what was being voted on, DD and Keith Edelman would disagree - on everything ................. and I dare to suggest that selling his shares to a crooked Russian in a last ditch attempt to gain control has turned the chilly relationship of the old cold war into the current status of all out war, prompting the over my dead body stance of Danny Fiszman who used to be DD's friend!
Now we all know the sort of people who form the board, but I don't think they are necessarily bad people and they are certainly no different to practically every other executive level up and down the country, except I happen to think that our board have done the club proud, cos they have moved with the times without selling our soul and that means more to me than anything, I'd prefer to win 1 title as Arsenal Football Club of N. London than 10 titles as some sort of N.W. London bastard child of the W. London Chavs!
Stan Kronke has also backed away from DD, upon realising the extent of opposition from within the club to anything associated with him, but mainly it was because of the conditions attached to his shares and I have to ask you this question Augie, not only is it bad enough that DD has actually sold his shares regardless of motive, does it not strike you as the least bit odd that the only person he could get to take him up on his offer of what must be some of the most attractive shares in world football, is someone who drags enough shit behind him to fertilise the Sahara desert and was desperate for the instant credibility that his association with DD would buy him???

[Cus Geezer]

He persued wenger when nobody & I mean nobody had ever heard of him and the decision alone has boosted this club beyond belief. Do any of ye honestly believe that when arsene wenger leaves our club that there is anyone on this board capable off pulling off such a masterstroke ?

This is total tabloid nonsense.

The England manager of the day was frequently quoting Wenger as an influence if anyone cared to listen. The FA were even interested in having him on board as a technical advisor.

The European side that he had previous experience with included George Weah, Jurgen Klinsmann, Glenn Hoddle and Mark Hateley, all people who were known to British football fans prior to 1996.

And as for Dein's masterstroke, it came on the advice of then manager of France, Gerard Houllier.

The way some people talk of the pre-Dein era, you'd think we had done a Wolves and were languishing outside of the top division on the brink of bankruptcy, this is total bollocks.

Arsenal Football Club have always been the most stable entity in English football history, the Hill Wood family influence should take a great deal of credit for this.

[augie]

Full of shit ?? Moi ?? Surely not. Listen I have always accepted that sometimes(only sometimes mind) I can get into a bit of a rant if I take umbridge at somebodys comments and it is true that I would like to see DD re-instated asap. Now that may not sit well with some people, especially given his ill advised movements of late, but I still believe that he is a man that has the club at heart.

My feeling is and always has been that if you do not like someone then fine but do not disrespect the work the individual has done for our club while here if the person has now left. I have always been 1 of the critics of henry while he was here but it amazes me the amount of people who loved him while he played for us and as soon as he left started talking about the negative effect he had on our team. I feel that the same thing is happening here with DD and fans who claim that DD's only input into our club was the appointment of Wenger and those that even try to water down that decision clearly know nothing about our pre wenger era or are so blinded with hate for DD that they refuse to accept the positives he brought to our club. Is DD perfect ? Absolutely not. Did he f*ck up on his views on ashburton grove ? Without doubt but if we are honest here that decision alone is not enough to reject the mans return to our club. As a strong supporter of DD I am well aware of the strong shift in opposition to DD since he "got into bed" with usmanov and I fear that this 1 decision will be the main reason that will meet fierce resistance from fans when he makes his move to return. I so wish that he had not made that move but by the same token I can only assume that should his new company take control of our club usmanov will give DD full power to run the club his way and that can only be good. Is DD power hungry ? Possibly so but he could have gone to other clubs offering him that power but he rejected that move cos he wants to return to the club he loves and that fact is undisputed.

Is our board steady ? Yes and always has been and for years their work in that regard should be commended. However the times have changed and steady as she goes is no longer enough if we are to compete at the top level. The ashburton grove project aside this board does not have enough drive and is not agressive enough to take us forward. Sadly we are now in a soccer world where money really does talk louder than ever before and in that regard we are left behind. Wenger's actual comments re foreign ownership stated that if it was just 1 club(chelski) that went down that road he would be against it but if several clubs('pool,manure,citeeh & villa) then we would have to consider following suit. Do ye really believe that the board are anti selling out ? If so how do you explain fiszman's decision to sell shares to kroenke cos as you say you cant be just a small bit pregnant. They supported the move then until the anti DD campaign kicked in and that started long before his alliance with usmanov. The undermining of DD started before last year - remember the cashly c*nt contract saga ? Say what you want about the c*nt(and I personally wouldnt piss on him if he was on fire) but the £60k per week agreed with DD wasnt excessive was it ? Remember phw's public comments about the renewed contracts of PV4 & henry a few years ago ?

I really believe that if we had any other manager in the world right now this board would not have the support from fans that it seems to have right now. To put it simply arsene wenger has managed to keep this club competitive on a shoe string budget for years where no other manager in the world could have done it. Now however other clubs in our own domestic league have more financial muscle than us and are flexing those muscles and we should be very worried about that. It is easier for wenger to remain competitive when it is just the likes of chelski & manure have more cash than us but nowadays players are after 2 things (cash & medals) and if it looks like we can provide neither then they aint coming here. The transfer market is a dog eat dog battleground nowadays and how long more are we expecting wenger to work with 1 hand tied behind his back financially ?

The vast majority of fans in the summer believed, despite comments from wenger and the board, that a lack of cash was behind the lack of transfer activity into the club and it is on that basis that I believe that we need new investment. It is mainly for that reason(not any personal hatred for the board even tho I dont esp like phw or fiszman) that I support a change at the top. I felt then and still do now that any consortium involving DD would give us the best of both worlds - future cash & a man who knows and understands all about the Arsenal traditions and would uphold these. We may have to agree to disagree on this point but please dont get confused between opposition to usmanov(of which I would agree with) and opposition to DD or indeed support for the board - just because the thought of usmanov owning our club scares us it does not mean that the current board are the right people to take us forward.