As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
into the red wrote:
George Graham - 6 trophies in 8 years
Arsene Wenger - 8 trophies in 15 years
Simple maths tells you Graham was the more successful manager so there is very much a life after Wenger.
.
Yes that is very simple...
If Wenger had the league Cup as a target every season, even when we were at our best between 2001 - 2005 and played in the Uefa / Euro league every year instead of CL you could probably have added 3 or 4 trophies at leasr.
Plus, If we'd given Graham another 10 years there's very little to suggest he'd done more than a couple o League cups at most. He'd be rich himself but the team would most likely have been turned into an Everton or Aston Villa.
Last edited by JakeN13 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I Hate Hleb wrote:Come to think of it, wasn't Dein the fella that used to say to fans worried that the new stadium would impact on the resources available for new players something like: 'Don't worry. There's no point having a great stadium unless you fill it with great players' ?
Not sure that worked out well - unless he meant it in terms of the opposition?
I take a very different point of view from previous posts.
I do not think his wealth has anything to do with it, nor I do I think Dein has misread the mood.
He was not born into poverty, but neither was he born rich.
The very fact that he has done such an interview, I think shows three things:
1.) He knows what is going on with the fans.
He was very committed to winning trophies and progress, and a genuine Arsenal fan, not just an investor.
2.) It also, in my opinion, shows he can guess what is going on with the board.
I reckon this is Dein letting the board know that he is aware of their increasing likelehood of getting rid of Wenger, something unthinkable three years ago.
Dein is not only supporting a friend, but reminding the board that if they really want to get rid of Wenger, they better have someone special lined up.
3.) It is Dein's way of sending a message to Wenger, that a significant section of the fans are very unhappy.
QuartzGooner wrote:I take a very different point of view from previous posts.
I do not think his wealth has anything to do with it, nor I do I think Dein has misread the mood.
He was not born into poverty, but neither was he born rich.
The very fact that he has done such an interview, I think shows three things:
1.) He knows what is going on with the fans.
He was very committed to winning trophies and progress, and a genuine Arsenal fan, not just an investor.
2.) It also, in my opinion, shows he can guess what is going on with the board.
I reckon this is Dein letting the board know that he is aware of their increasing likelehood of getting rid of Wenger, something unthinkable three years ago.
Dein is not only supporting a friend, but reminding the board that if they really want to get rid of Wenger, they better have someone special lined up.
3.) It is Dein's way of sending a message to Wenger, that a significant section of the fans are very unhappy.
Agree partially mate but we must never forget 3 things when talking about David Dein.
1. He has an enormous axe to grind against the Arsenal board. A few of the board members that agreed to remove Dein may have moved on but Dein has every motive to brief against them.
2. Dein is an arch politician and an arch manipulator. I met him on a few occasions when I was on the official Fans' Forum 6 years ago - he is likeable, affable and pleasant but I (and many others) got the impression that he would pull the lifeboats up as soon as it suited him to do so.
3. Dein did very well for us but he has become fantastically wealthy through Arsenal. I refuse to accept that he can identify with my predicament since the recession started - I can afford Arsenal tickets OR treats / toys for my 3 year old son. I can't afford both. Please don't tell me that Dein gives a shit about this!
QuartzGooner wrote:I take a very different point of view from previous posts.
I do not think his wealth has anything to do with it, nor I do I think Dein has misread the mood.
He was not born into poverty, but neither was he born rich.
The very fact that he has done such an interview, I think shows three things:
1.) He knows what is going on with the fans.
He was very committed to winning trophies and progress, and a genuine Arsenal fan, not just an investor.
2.) It also, in my opinion, shows he can guess what is going on with the board.
I reckon this is Dein letting the board know that he is aware of their increasing likelehood of getting rid of Wenger, something unthinkable three years ago.
Dein is not only supporting a friend, but reminding the board that if they really want to get rid of Wenger, they better have someone special lined up.
3.) It is Dein's way of sending a message to Wenger, that a significant section of the fans are very unhappy.
Agree partially mate but we must never forget 3 things when talking about David Dein.
1. He has an enormous axe to grind against the Arsenal board. A few of the board members that agreed to remove Dein may have moved on but Dein has every motive to brief against them.
2. Dein is an arch politician and an arch manipulator. I met him on a few occasions when I was on the official Fans' Forum 6 years ago - he is likeable, affable and pleasant but I (and many others) got the impression that he would pull the lifeboats up as soon as it suited him to do so.
3. Dein did very well for us but he has become fantastically wealthy through Arsenal. I refuse to accept that he can identify with my predicament since the recession started - I can afford Arsenal tickets OR treats / toys for my 3 year old son. I can't afford both. Please don't tell me that Dein gives a shit about this!
100% agree - the bloke is treated like some "messiah" on here and i just dont get it.
QuartzGooner wrote:I take a very different point of view from previous posts.
I do not think his wealth has anything to do with it, nor I do I think Dein has misread the mood.
He was not born into poverty, but neither was he born rich.
The very fact that he has done such an interview, I think shows three things:
1.) He knows what is going on with the fans.
He was very committed to winning trophies and progress, and a genuine Arsenal fan, not just an investor.
2.) It also, in my opinion, shows he can guess what is going on with the board.
I reckon this is Dein letting the board know that he is aware of their increasing likelehood of getting rid of Wenger, something unthinkable three years ago.
Dein is not only supporting a friend, but reminding the board that if they really want to get rid of Wenger, they better have someone special lined up.
3.) It is Dein's way of sending a message to Wenger, that a significant section of the fans are very unhappy.
Agree partially mate but we must never forget 3 things when talking about David Dein.
1. He has an enormous axe to grind against the Arsenal board. A few of the board members that agreed to remove Dein may have moved on but Dein has every motive to brief against them.
2. Dein is an arch politician and an arch manipulator. I met him on a few occasions when I was on the official Fans' Forum 6 years ago - he is likeable, affable and pleasant but I (and many others) got the impression that he would pull the lifeboats up as soon as it suited him to do so.
3. Dein did very well for us but he has become fantastically wealthy through Arsenal. I refuse to accept that he can identify with my predicament since the recession started - I can afford Arsenal tickets OR treats / toys for my 3 year old son. I can't afford both. Please don't tell me that Dein gives a shit about this!
100% agree - the bloke is treated like some "messiah" on here and i just dont get it.
Cole?
Edu?
all happenned under his watch, the man is no God.
So who is the villain. Cole? Dein?
Are they both the villain?
Make your mind up.
How can Dein be held accountable for Cole's salary?
Ok there is only going to be guesswork here as none of us were on the board, but it looked to me as if Dein got overuled by other board members and then had to backtrack on the salaries offered. Plus Cole has years left to run on his contract.
And Dein was kicked off the board, so if he wanted to "Have a say" now he would no more have one with his shares, than he has without them.
QuartzGooner wrote:I take a very different point of view from previous posts.
I do not think his wealth has anything to do with it, nor I do I think Dein has misread the mood.
He was not born into poverty, but neither was he born rich.
The very fact that he has done such an interview, I think shows three things:
1.) He knows what is going on with the fans.
He was very committed to winning trophies and progress, and a genuine Arsenal fan, not just an investor.
2.) It also, in my opinion, shows he can guess what is going on with the board.
I reckon this is Dein letting the board know that he is aware of their increasing likelehood of getting rid of Wenger, something unthinkable three years ago.
Dein is not only supporting a friend, but reminding the board that if they really want to get rid of Wenger, they better have someone special lined up.
3.) It is Dein's way of sending a message to Wenger, that a significant section of the fans are very unhappy.
Agree partially mate but we must never forget 3 things when talking about David Dein.
1. He has an enormous axe to grind against the Arsenal board. A few of the board members that agreed to remove Dein may have moved on but Dein has every motive to brief against them.
2. Dein is an arch politician and an arch manipulator. I met him on a few occasions when I was on the official Fans' Forum 6 years ago - he is likeable, affable and pleasant but I (and many others) got the impression that he would pull the lifeboats up as soon as it suited him to do so.
3. Dein did very well for us but he has become fantastically wealthy through Arsenal. I refuse to accept that he can identify with my predicament since the recession started - I can afford Arsenal tickets OR treats / toys for my 3 year old son. I can't afford both. Please don't tell me that Dein gives a shit about this!
100% agree - the bloke is treated like some "messiah" on here and i just dont get it.
Cole?
Edu?
all happenned under his watch, the man is no God.
So who is the villain. Cole? Dein?
Are they both the villain?
Make your mind up.
How can Dein be held accountable for Cole's salary?
Ok there is only going to be guesswork here as none of us were on the board, but it looked to me as if Dein got overuled by other board members and then had to backtrack on the salaries offered. Plus Cole has years left to run on his contract.
And Dein was kicked off the board, so if he wanted to "Have a say" now he would no more have one with his shares, than he has without them.
My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
You sure that's right?
I'm sure he was kicked off the board. I remember reading a story that his 02 mobile was switched off within an hour of him leaving the ground and he didn't sell his shares for a while. Usmanov never had any position on the board and he's had Dein's shares plus loads of others for a while now.
Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
You sure that's right?
I'm sure he was kicked off the board. I remember reading a story that his 02 mobile was switched off within an hour of him leaving the ground and he didn't sell his shares for a while. Usmanov never had any position on the board and he's had Dein's shares plus loads of others for a while now.
He has/had no major say in how things are run.
He still didnt have to sell did he? If he cared that much, why sell? He is a shrewd business man i dont accept that he was just simply "kicked off", he is too clever for that.
Playing Devils Avocado, IF we was kicked off - would it not have been for a good reason perhaps? We lay the blame with others but who is to say they were not right? Maybe he was getting above his station and damaging the club?.
This is all an aside, my point is, what is happening now is not a new phenomenon that didnt happen in the "good old days" of Dein - players rule the roost now and Dein could never change that, not then, not now.
Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:
My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
Dein was sacked from his role as vice-Chairman, kicked off the board, and banned from the ground for a few months.
He sold his shares because his only way back in would be if someone took over the club and replaced the board, that shows a desire to be involved!
So what if his son is Cesc's agent?
Cesc was always going to return to Barcelona.
Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
You sure that's right?
I'm sure he was kicked off the board. I remember reading a story that his 02 mobile was switched off within an hour of him leaving the ground and he didn't sell his shares for a while. Usmanov never had any position on the board and he's had Dein's shares plus loads of others for a while now.
He has/had no major say in how things are run.
He still didnt have to sell did he? If he cared that much, why sell? He is a shrewd business man i dont accept that he was just simply "kicked off", he is too clever for that.
Playing Devils Avocado, IF we was kicked off - would it not have been for a good reason perhaps? We lay the blame with others but who is to say they were not right? Maybe he was getting above his station and damaging the club?.
This is all an aside, my point is, what is happening now is not a new phenomenon that didnt happen in the "good old days" of Dein - players rule the roost now and Dein could never change that, not then, not now.
I dont know, if you walk into a board meeting and every other board member wants you out, what are you gonna do?
Wasn't it Fizman who flushed him out, putting some shares on the market which Kroenke then picked up, they traced back to Dein and insisted he leave the board? I don't know something like that.
I think no matter what, he wanted a billionaire to take over, first Kroenke and then onto Usmanov.
But as you say, an aside to the main point which I think you have a fair arguement with. Let me ask you a question though,
Would you prefer Dein negotiating our transfers of incoming targets or Gazidis?
Dein was forcibly removed from the Board by the other Board members in April 2007. The phrase they used at the time was "irreconcilable differences" between him and the rest of the board. He didn't sell his shares to Alisher Usmanov until August 2007.
The exact reasons (or "irreconcilable differences" as they put it) have never been revealed although they are thought to be any combination of the following
* Dein wanted us to move to Wembley but the rest of the Board wanted us to own our ground.
* Dein wanted to bring Kroenke and/or Usmanov on board but the others would not support this.
* Dein and Keith Edelman hated each other and couldn't work together - Edelman won that battle but lost the next battle when he was sacked.
Dein doesn't strike me as the sort of man to come out and say "You know what? I f**ked up and my mate Arsene is following the wrong path now" so any interviews he gives now are following the same tired old pattern.
Bendtners Drinking Buddy wrote:My point is - Players dictate what they want to do - Dein would not have made any difference in the Nasri / Cesc sagas of late. Edu ran down his contract, just as Nasri is doing, under his watch - so this isnt a "new" phenonmenon.
Dein was not "kicked off" the board - how can he be? He had a major and influential shareholding and a major role in the football club - supported by the manager! He CHOSE to sell his shares when he didnt have too, he could still be having a say now had he wished - he took the money and ran....some "Arsenal through and through man" he is - just like his son is now an agent for all the players that appear to be leaving.
Dein did a great job for us, but he is no hero that could come back and save the day now
You sure that's right?
I'm sure he was kicked off the board. I remember reading a story that his 02 mobile was switched off within an hour of him leaving the ground and he didn't sell his shares for a while. Usmanov never had any position on the board and he's had Dein's shares plus loads of others for a while now.
He has/had no major say in how things are run.
He still didnt have to sell did he? If he cared that much, why sell? He is a shrewd business man i dont accept that he was just simply "kicked off", he is too clever for that.
Playing Devils Avocado, IF we was kicked off - would it not have been for a good reason perhaps? We lay the blame with others but who is to say they were not right? Maybe he was getting above his station and damaging the club?.
This is all an aside, my point is, what is happening now is not a new phenomenon that didnt happen in the "good old days" of Dein - players rule the roost now and Dein could never change that, not then, not now.
I dont know, if you walk into a board meeting and every other board member wants you out, what are you gonna do?
Wasn't it Fizman who flushed him out, putting some shares on the market which Kroenke then picked up, they traced back to Dein and insisted he leave the board? I don't know something like that.
I think no matter what, he wanted a billionaire to take over, first Kroenke and then onto Usmanov.
But as you say, an aside to the main point which I think you have a fair arguement with. Let me ask you a question though,
Would you prefer Dein negotiating our transfers of incoming targets or Gazidis?
Who knows? on past performances i agree, Dein was succesful - but after Dein we have brought in the likes of Nasri, Arshavin, Ramsey....
But what if the problem is Wenger not Ivan? We just dont know - i dont thnk for one minute Wenger would put up with Ivan not getting deals done, he would walk....i wonder if :
a) Financial constrainst are bigger than we think
b) We (Wenger) are not actually bidding for the players we are made to believe we are
