ARE ARSENAL STILL A BIG CLUB?

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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Are Arsenal FC Still a Big Club?

YES
26
55%
NO
21
45%
 
Total votes: 47

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cameron326
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Post by cameron326 »

we are the 5th most succesful club in Europe over the past years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

1. Man Utd
2. Barca
3. Chelsea
4. Bayern
5. Arsenal

:barscarf:

Speaking currently and historically, which clubs are bigger than Arsenal? (taking fanbase, global appeal, stadium, cash, domestic/european honours into account)

Defintely/Probably:
AC Milan
Inter
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Man Utd
Bayern Munich

Maybe:
Juventus
Liverpool
Borussia Dortmund

That's it I reckon. We're in the top 10 regardless.

Jumpers For Goalposts
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Post by Jumpers For Goalposts »

We're a big club, no doubt about that. But what we lack is the leadership that want us to be the biggest club.

Right now everyone at the top (Board / manager) seem content to jog along and just tell everyone how big we are, rather than roll our sleeves up and behave like the old Australian cricket team or like Ferguson - where only number 1 is good enough. The sort of teams that make history and are talked about for years.

I always thought that professional sport was all about trying to be the very best, not being happy with 4th place. Or maybe the money that 4th place brings is more than enough compensation - or am I just being cynical??

Babatunde
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Location: London

Post by Babatunde »

RoscommonGooner wrote:Why did you give 2 voting options?
Because 'Yes' and 'No' constitute two options. It's a simple one.

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

terry henry wrote:We are a big club. I think what you mean is the team crap. Then yes . Yes they are.
Considering the parameters were pre-defined as being non-historical, could you please explain how you think we are a big club? I am genuinely interested to see how your thought process works on this.

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

Boomer wrote:Where? In Europe or at home?
Semantics again Boomer (you love those!) :)

You are either a big club or not.

ManYoo are a big club.
Chelski are a big club.
Bayern are a big club

Home, Europe wherever. You're either a big club or not. Semantics.

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

Percy Dalton wrote:Yes in some ways, no in many others!

We have the infrastructure to be a big club but we lack the mindset and unfortunately the lack of real European success always counts against you.

Several years ago I we had our foot in the door of the European big boys club but we have since been turfed out!

8)
This, along with SWL are the first intelligent and constructive responses I've read to this poll. Thanks mate I think Percy explains that very well.

LDB
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Post by LDB »

1989 wrote:Myles Palmer hit the nail on the head when he said:

Arsenal are a big club ran by small people.
Pretty much this

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

Look. No one debates Arsenal's history. No one. We all know it. And yes it is an essential composition of any big club.

However.

Consider the facts and consider Arsenal's standing. No teams fear playing Arsenal at all. No one. In fact if anything, they are emboldened! The sign of a big club also is a club that scares the opposition at the mere mention of the name. Liverpool are shit but going to Anfield is still seen as one of the toughest fixtures for clubs.

Going to the Emirates is something that even Villa relish now.

So the question remains: no one is writing off Arsenal's history. What I am saying, is that the people carping on about things we won very long ago are beginning to sound like Liverpool fans! :shock:

No one disputes Arsenal's rich history. People dispute whether Arsenal can still be considered a big club. And according to 'Arsenal's greatest ever manager' (tm) Arsenal can no longer be considered a big club. He said it.

So I ask again: how does this work?

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

augie wrote:Seems like some people want to take offence to this question even being asked and point to our history as if to so that it is an absurd question :o
Instead of reacting that way how about answering these questions -

1. What is the boards ambitions at the start of every season ? If you answer honestly then I think you would say that their main objective is to finish top 4 so for me that suggests us not being a top club cos top clubs aim to win trophies as their main objective

2. Does european clubs and foreign players view us as a top club ? Again evidence would suggest not as we frequently see our better players cherry picked by other clubs and we dont have the same attraction when it comes to recruiting players now either

3. Do sponsors view us as a top club ? Compare our sponsorship deals with that of our rivals and you will see a vast difference. Yes a certain amount can be attributed to the cash up front deals when the grove money was needed but we still do not have the sponsorship attraction other clubs do and that will be shown up next year when the nike deal is re-negotiated

We have a very big fanbase so from that point of view we are indeed a top club. We have a glorious history which is only bettered domestically by the red mancs and scousers so that too suggests a big club standing. However history alone doesnt cut it or else clubs like forest (2 european cups) and villa (1 european cup) would be classed as top clubs when clearly they aint. I would say that we have without a doubt the potential to be a huge club but being a big club is not decided purely on a team basis.....I would say it has as much to do with a mindset and a strategy in a club and sadly we run our club like a coca cola championship club :( :oops:
Superb post.

Seeing how touchy and tetchy some people are appearing to get at the mere mention of the question, is very revealing indeed.... :wink:

Babatunde
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Post by Babatunde »

cameron326 wrote:we are the 5th most succesful club in Europe over the past years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

1. Man Utd
2. Barca
3. Chelsea
4. Bayern
5. Arsenal

:barscarf:

Speaking currently and historically, which clubs are bigger than Arsenal? (taking fanbase, global appeal, stadium, cash, domestic/european honours into account)

Defintely/Probably:
AC Milan
Inter
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Man Utd
Bayern Munich

Maybe:
Juventus
Liverpool
Borussia Dortmund

That's it I reckon. We're in the top 10 regardless.
UEFA rankings are bollocks. Not worth reading. Arsenal ahead of Real Madrid, AC Milan and Inter Milan in European rankings is quite simply laughable.

It's a bit like the people who believe FIFA rankings (England better than Holland, and a while back Mexico better than Brazil and the Czech Republic better than Germany LOL)

Babatunde
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Location: London

Post by Babatunde »

If we are a big club, why is 4th considered success? Why do people keep talking about 'Top 4'? When you think of the biggest sportsmen and most successful big personalities....do we remember Mohammed Ali and Ayrton Senna celebrating 4th?

How can people reconcile a club that is all round happy to target 4th as an objective every season, and one that considers finance more important than sporting success...with a Big Club? Just how?

:shock:

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QuartzGooner
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Post by QuartzGooner »

Babatunde wrote:Look. No one debates Arsenal's history. No one. We all know it. And yes it is an essential composition of any big club.

However.

Consider the facts and consider Arsenal's standing. No teams fear playing Arsenal at all. No one. In fact if anything, they are emboldened! The sign of a big club also is a club that scares the opposition at the mere mention of the name. Liverpool are shit but going to Anfield is still seen as one of the toughest fixtures for clubs.

Going to the Emirates is something that even Villa relish now.

So the question remains: no one is writing off Arsenal's history. What I am saying, is that the people carping on about things we won very long ago are beginning to sound like Liverpool fans! :shock:

No one disputes Arsenal's rich history. People dispute whether Arsenal can still be considered a big club. And according to 'Arsenal's greatest ever manager' (tm) Arsenal can no longer be considered a big club. He said it.

So I ask again: how does this work?
I strongly disagree with your viewpoint.

You seem to be trying to intentionally stir things up here.

It is your thread, but you dismiss our history as if it were barely relevant.

You cannot compare us to Liverpool, because we have won the league seven years ago, they 21 years ago.

It is a significant difference.

"BIG CLUB" status is not a "Here and Now" matter in all but the most extreme case of a club going bust.

Big Club status involves many parameters, many of which I have previously listed.

Sure, few fear us on the pitch at present.

You seem to confuse "Big Club" with "Form Team" and "Rich Owners".

For all of Chelsea and Man City's wealth, their status is built on their owners, nothing more.
They have added to their history, but only in terms of total trophies won, not unique historic achievements or stylish play.
The domestic Double has been devalued, to the point where I would say our last Double in 2002 was the last one that counted for something special.

It would take decades for Man City and Chelsea to infiltrate the public consciousness in the way we have.

Look at both of these clubs. They know that to be true, and are now investing in training ground improvements and youth.
Just as we have before them.
Though for us, our manager relied too heavily on these.

If Man City and Chelsea's owners walk away, they diminish.

If our walks away, so what?

The current state of English football is that three clubs are financially powerful enough to spend masses on players.

Ours has a different financial strength, that of long term security, all be it partially dependent on Champions League qualification.

We cannot compete equally financially with the other clubs, but we do have enough cash to buy some good enough players and with better team management/coaching we can compete for the title.
In the knowledge that our financial security is better.

That said I would be happy for Usmanov to join the board and inject a bit of cash if he wants to. Why not?

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donaldo
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Post by donaldo »

A team who starts the season with the ambition of finishing 4th is not a big team :cry:

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hugh jardon
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Post by hugh jardon »

Babatunde = attention seeker/cock sucker
Last edited by hugh jardon on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rosie_titters
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Post by Rosie_titters »

were we ever a big club :wink:

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