WHAT DID WE LEARN FROM TONIGHT?

[I Hate Hleb]

Which of the two men was Phil's? The one behind him who scored or the one in front of Phil?...

THE MAN BEHIND SENDEROS WHO EVENTUALLY SCORED THE GOAL - THEIR CENTRE FORWARD!!

PRIOR TO THE GOAL, WHEN THEY HAD THE BALL OUT WIDE ON THEIR LEFT, PHIL WAS MARKING THE GOAL-SCORER.

THE OTHER STEAU PLAYER WAS SITTING A FEW YARDS OUTSIDE OUR BOX AND MADE A RUN INTO IT FROM RIGHT TO LEFT. THIS RUN DISTRACTED SENDEROS, WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, SO HE FOLLOWED THIS NEW RUNNER - WHILST TRYING TO PASS ON HIS MAN TO TRAORE - AND THAT ALLOWED THE MAN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MARKING TO GHOST INTO SPACE BEHIND HIM TO SCORE!

NOW MAYBE YOU CAN ARGUE THAT SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PICKING UP THE GUY ON THE EDGE OF THE BOX THAT MADE THE DISTRACTING RUN, BUT YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE GOAL-SCORER WAS BIG PHIL'S MAN, AND HE JUST LET HIM GO!!

HOPE THAT MAKES THINGS CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU MAGIC.

[essex womble]

Wondered why most of first eleven were rested and not Sagna; was Hoyte injured , he wasn't named as a sub.
Obviously RVP's return was the main plus point,although Walcott again showed that he has the pace and skill to get into the box, and hopefully when Eboue goes to African Nations Cup, Theo will get a regular start.
Still think that Senderos is a mistake a game player, and fear when Toure goes to Afriocan Nations Cup.
The real issue was why the first half approach when we created loads of chances, dwindled away in the second half.

[Magic Hat]

So what Senderos should have done was stick to the man Traore could easily cover and allow a man to run into the centre of the box unmarked? No offence but I would consider the guy heading into the centre where he could get in an unchallenged header as more important then guy slightly to the right who can be marked by Traore.

[delgooner]

That we're crap without our main men

[I Hate Hleb]

So what Senderos should have done was stick to the man Traore could easily cover and allow a man to run into the centre of the box unmarked? No offence but I would consider the guy heading into the centre where he could get in an unchallenged header as more important then guy slightly to the right who can be marked by Traore.

TRAORE ALREADY HAD A MAN HE WAS MARKING!!

THE PLAYER THAT MADE THE RUN INTO THE LEFT SIDE OF OUR BOX WAS IN A LESS THREATENING POSITION AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER TO STOP - AND FOUND IT HARDER TO SCORE - THAN THE PLAYER WHO ULTIMATELY SCORED THE GOAL WHO WAS STOOD OUTSIDE OUR SIX YARD BOX UNMARKED!

FECK ME MAGIC, I DON'T WANT TO BE INSULTING BUT DID YOU EVER PLAY FOOTBALL?

[Magic Hat]

As a leftback who can't head and a keeper who can't save yes.

Yes Traore already had a man who he was marking which begs the question of why it was 3 against two 2 but I would say the guy who scored as more a danger then the one Troare was originally marking. I'm content with what Big Phil tried to do as the better of the two choices

[I Hate Hleb]

AH, A FELLOW LEFT-BACK!! SO WHY THE FECK DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT DEFENDING?

TELL ME, WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO THREATEN THE GOAL: A MAN DRIFTING INTO THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF YOUR BOX FROM WHERE THE BALL IS COMING, WHO COULD HAVE BEEN CLOSED DOWN OR, FAILING THAT, WOULD HAVE FOUND IT DIFFICULT TO PUT POWER AND DIRECTION ONTO A CROSS?

OR THE CENTRE FORWARD WHO IS STANDING UNMARKED IN THE CENTRE OF YOUR GOAL-MOUTH ON THE EDGE OF YOUR 6 YARD BOX, WAITING FOR A CROSS?

LOOK AT THE GOAL AGAIN ON YOUTUBE AND THEY SHOW A REPLAY (THE SECOND ONE, I THINK) WHICH SHOWS PERFECTLY WHAT SENDEROS DOES WRONG. AFTER INITIALLY TRYING TO PUSH OUT TO PLAY OFFSIDE, HE GETS DRAWN TO THE RUNNER AND LEAVES HIS MAN UNMARKED TO DRIFT INTO THE CENTRE AND SCORE.

NO MATTER WHAT WAY YOU TRY AND DRESS IT UP, ANYONE THAT KNOWS THE GAME - AND MY STRENGTH AS A PLAYER WAS THE ABILITY TO READ THE GAME - WILL TELL YOU THAT WAS RANK BAD DEFENDING!!

[I Hate Hleb]

..Yes Traore already had a man who he was marking which begs the question of why it was 3 against two 2 but I would say the guy who scored as more a danger then the one Troare was originally marking. I'm content with what Big Phil tried to do as the better of the two choices

IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE THAT AS A JUSTIFICATION, IT SHOULD THEREFORE LEAD YOU TO THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION THAT THE MAN SENDEROS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MARKING WAS ALSO MORE OF A THREAT THAN THE GUY HE WENT OUT TO MARK!! AND DIDN'T HE PROVE IT!!

[Magic Hat]

No, had the ball fallen to the furthest guy and he smacked it in due to Troare going for the more central guy, I would say Troare did the right thing. Well no, his challenge wasn't too good but better he want for the guy he did.

Looking at the replay, the guy does peel off to the left and as soon as his run changes from centre area to the left, Senderos tries to get back to his original man but cross is coming in and it is too late.

[I Hate Hleb]

No, had the ball fallen to the furthest guy and he smacked it in due to Troare going for the more central guy, I would say Troare did the right thing. Well no, his challenge wasn't too good but better he want for the guy he did..

BUT THE POINT IS THAT IT FELL NOT TO THE MAN TRAORE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MARKING, BUT TO THE ONE PHIL SHOULD HAVE BEEN!! HE IS THE MAN THAT PUT THE BALL IN THE BACK OF THE NET THUS PROVING HE WAS THE REAL DANGER.

Looking at the replay, the guy does peel off to the left and as soon as his run changes from centre area to the left, Senderos tries to get back to his original man but cross is coming in and it is too late.

EXACTLY. THEREFORE, THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION IS THAT IT WAS PHIL'S MISTAKE!! YOU CERTAINLY CAN'T BLAME TRAORE, AS YOU TRIED TO.

IT BOILS DOWN TO DECISION MAKING - ESPECIALLY AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL. I'M NOT SAYING THAT OTHERS DON'T MAKE MISTAKES (LOOK AT TOURE AT BORO, FOR INSTANCE), BUT UNFORTUNATELY SENDEROS MAKES MORE THAN A TOP PLAYER SHOULD, AND SEEMS TO GET PUNISHED MORE OFTEN THAN NOT WHEN HE MAKES HIS. REMEMBER, BIG PHIL WAS ALSO VERY FORTUNATE IN THE SECOND HALF THAT A MISJUDGEMENT OF HIS ALSO DIDN'T LEAD TO ANOTHER GOAL.

WHEN YOU ADD HIS PROPENSITY TO MAKE MISTAKES, TO HIS POOR READING OF THE GAME, LACK OF COMPOSURE ON THE BALL, LACK OF PACE AND AN INABILITY TO PASS PROPERLY, THE GUY REALLY HASN'T GOT THAT MUCH GOING FOR HIM - CERTAINLY NOT AT THE VERY TOP LEVEL OF THE GAME, WHERE WE ASPIRE TO BE.

AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, I LIKE THE GUY BUT I'M AFRAID HE JUST ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH.

[Magic Hat]

How was he to know that the runner was going to run to the left and not into the centre where he would be in an ideal place to head a good cross unmarked? It was the better choice out of two not very nice ones, always a chance someone will score whichever one you pick.

The misjudgment where he failed to get to a ball in the air near half way line but got back and made another interception? The guy is prone to making an error when thrown in, when in a good long run he seems able to cut them out and he does lack pace, his passing and reading of the game is normally fine, certainly good on Wednesday, better then Gallas who hardly did a thing.

I'm sure the Real Madrid, Juventus, Valencia, France and Ukraine know that they couldn't beat a not good enough cb.

[I Hate Hleb]

THERE COMES A TIME WHEN REGARDLESS OF CAREFUL EXPLAINATION, THE USE OF FACTS, AND THE APPLIANCE OF REASON AND COMMON SENSE, THE MESSAGE JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO GET THROUGH. I THINK I'VE REACHED THAT POINT WITH YOU NOW MAGICHAT.

IT'S NOT WORTH GOING ON BANGING MY HEAD WITH SOMEONE WHO IS OBLIVIOUS TO UNDERSTANDING EVEN THE VERY BASICS OF FOOTBALL, LIKE WHO A DEFENDER SHOULD BE DEFENDING AGAINST.

THEREFORE, I THINK I'LL JUST HAVE TO LEAVE THIS DEBATE HERE AND HOPE THAT YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME IS NOT SPOILED BY YOUR APPARENT IGNORANCE OF HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED.

I APOLOGISE IF THAT SOUNDS A BIT HARSH, BUT IT'S TRUELY HOW I FEEL AFTER READING YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS ON THIS DEBATE.

[Magic Hat]

You know some would use the phrase "agree to disagree" rather then insult the other person. Try it next time rather then decide that because I prefer to see those in the centre marked rather the to the right, that I know nothing

[REB]

i know im a bit late with this as i was computerless since wed but i thought traore was shocking on wed nite and every attack was down his side, just hope he has learnt from it

as i wouldnt like to see him play left back every week if thats the type of performance we'd have to put up with

[I Hate Hleb]

You know some would use the phrase "agree to disagree" rather then insult the other person. Try it next time rather then decide that because I prefer to see those in the centre marked rather the to the right, that I know nothing

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL THIS TIME!!

SO, USING YOUR ABOVE ARGUMENT, WHO WAS MORE CENTRAL - THE MIDFIELDER THAT MADE A RUN IN AND THEN AWAY FROM OUR BOX, OR THE STRIKER THAT WAS UNMARKED ON THE EDGE OF OUR 6 YARD LINE TO SCORE THE BLOODY GOAL???

I'M NOT SAYING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT FOOTBALL - JUST THAT YOU KNOW LITTLE ABOUT DEFENDING IF YOUR ARGUMENTS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE TAKEN ON THEIR MERITS.

I'M SORRY IF YOU WERE OFFENDED BY MY LAST POST MAGIC. I'M NOT USUALLY ONE THAT HAS A POP AT YOUR OPINIONS AND I TRIED TO BE AS INOFFENSIVE AS I COULD, GIVEN MY IRE AT YOUR REASONING.

HOWEVER, I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT IT WAS ALL COMING FROM A GOOD PLACE. INDEED, I FELT DUTY BOUND TO HELP YOU SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR STANCE BECAUSE, AS THE SAYING GOES: TO BE IGNORANT OF ONE'S IGNORANCE IS THE MALADY OF THE IGNORANT!!