Paris attacks

[DB10GOONER]

The answer is annihilation. We have to wipe them out in their thousands. Kill so many of them we reduce their capacity to commit these outrages. We'll never be entirely free of them, but we can reduce the numbers they kill.

There is nothing to negotiate with them. We don't have anything they want. We can't negotiate with them and offer them land or financial help or resources. They want to convert or kill people that don't believe in their bastardised version of Islam. You can't negotiate with brainwashed sociopaths and religious fundamentalists.

[northbank123]

The answer is annihilation. We have to wipe them out in their thousands. Kill so many of them we reduce their capacity to commit these outrages. We'll never be entirely free of them, but we can reduce the numbers they kill.

There is nothing to negotiate with them. We don't have anything they want. We can't negotiate with them and offer them land or financial help or resources. They want to convert or kill people that don't believe in their bastardised version of Islam. You can't negotiate with brainwashed sociopaths and religious fundamentalists.

Absolutely. They are worse than anybody else - even the likes of the Taliban had some kind of acknowledgement of the status of aid workers etc.

The reality is that ISIS cannot be effectively eradicated without troops on the ground - and which governments are going to back that?

[Rugby Gooner]

According to Radio 5 Live,two of the motherfucking crunts who carried out this pathetic,vindictive,cowardly bollocks were recently arrived from Syria,(via Greece), "refugees."
The U.K. should bear this in mind before giving it the big liberal diversity bullshit!
Condolences and thoughts to the victims and families of this tragic event.
To the perpetrators.....rot in whatever fucking hell that you believe in you cocksucking wankers!

[storrmin571]

The huge majority of muslims are no danger, this vile bunch of criminals need to be taken out. There needs to be education the Wahabbi form of Islam is the one spreading the disease. We need to find out why and then cure it.

Personally haven't lost any sleep when the UK took out a ISIS member who was originally from Cardiff.

[QuartzGooner]

There are refugees, there are economic migrants and there are terrorists who want to get into Europe.
They are three different categories.
Extra border controls are merely shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, most of these terrorists turn out to be home grown anyway.

I think increased Western military intervention in the Middle Eastern Sunni vs Shia war is inevitable.
ISIS has grown to 85,000 troops, and now controls 45% of Iraq and Syria.

President Obama may well keep US troops on the ground in Syria limited to less than 1000 Special Forces troops, but a President Trump or a President Carson are much more likely to increase that number.

Especially as there has just been a major oil field find in the Golan, that changes things somewhat.
For the first time, Israel has an oil field economically worth excavating, and it is right on the Syrian border.

[nut flush gooner]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

It's quite insultive to use that tone, especially to the millions of Muslims around the world that condemn any act of terrorism. ISIL, ISIS, IS call it what you want was borne out of the consequences of the Iraq war which both Blair and Bush illegally started.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein whilst a nuisance, was nowhere near the threat to the west that we where lead to believe. The Chilcott report which I am sure will verify what we all knew anyway, so why aren't people pointing the finger at Tony Blair.

This whole situation is highly complex, to label a certain religion in the way I know a lot of westerners do is wrong and ill founded. They may claim to be carrying out these crimes in the name of Islam, but anyone who knows about the Muslim faith and the writings of the Qur'an would know their interpretations are warped and wrong.

FWIW I am not Muslim, in fact my country of origin has been at war with muslims on and off since 1947.

[QuartzGooner]

Nut Flush

Whilst ISIL as an organisation was born fairly recently, it evolved out of mergers of other existing militant groups.
To claim the Iraq war was the cause? I see that as a misnomer.
Islam has been at war with the Christian West for around 1000 years.

It has everything to do with Islam.
To claim that what these people did in Paris was not in accordance with Islam, that they just had a twisted interpretation is not the full story.
There are too many people worldwide doing violence in the name of Islam, using Islamic scriptures to justify what they do, for anyone to justifiably claim there is no link to Islam for these atrocities.

I know that there are contradictions, that in one part of the Koran they tell Muslims to attack Jews, in other part they tell Muslims to treat Jews with respect.
It is part of the early history of Islam that Muhammad made war on the Jewish tribes of Arabia.
(That's one more bugbear, how many claim my people are recent invaders from Poland yet in their own scriptures they gloat over fighting with Jewish tribes in the Middle East 1400 years ago!)

But nothing short of changing the Koran is going to stop some of these attacks, and even then fanatics will continue.

I don't hate Muslims, and there are level headed Muslims who focus on charity and reason, but there are things in the very essence of that religion which need looking at.

[rodders999]

The answer is annihilation. We have to wipe them out in their thousands. Kill so many of them we reduce their capacity to commit these outrages. We'll never be entirely free of them, but we can reduce the numbers they kill.

There is nothing to negotiate with them. We don't have anything they want. We can't negotiate with them and offer them land or financial help or resources. They want to convert or kill people that don't believe in their bastardised version of Islam. You can't negotiate with brainwashed sociopaths and religious fundamentalists.

Agreed. They should be vaporised off the face of the earth, that's the only answer.

[GranadaJoe]

I'm waiting in dread for the first member of the chattering clases to tell us 'it's nothing to do with religión ...'

It's quite insultive to use that tone, especially to the millions of Muslims around the world that condemn any act of terrorism.

It was meant to be insulting!
But not to Islam (although I'm quite happy to insult all of the world's man-made, magic man in the sky religions). It was aimed at the western apologists, who arrogantly and invariably ignorantly, claim that 'this is not true Islam'.

Why do they say it? They may have heard someone else say it, or maybe they have seen a verse from the Koran which extols peace. However, there are hundreds of verses preaching violence and aggression. Verses which have been used to justify extreme acts of violence against non-believers. Wahhabism started a couple of hundred years ago and was taken up by the Saud family and is accepted by many millions of Sunnis. I don't believe any of us know just how much of their philosophy is accepted by the silent majority, but I'm pretty sure you haven't heard millions of muslims condemn it. I suspect only the handful that have been put up by the media and maybe a few friends.

This whole situation is highly complex, to label a certain religion in the way I know a lot of westerners do is wrong and ill founded. They may claim to be carrying out these crimes in the name of Islam, but anyone who knows about the Muslim faith and the writings of the Qur'an would know their interpretations are warped and wrong.

These people are raised muslim, by muslim familes, usually in muslim countries and study their religion for endless hours. Many are well-educated. How can we say that their interpretation is warped? They can justify it just as logically and just as convincingly as those who hold a different view. We may wish it wasn't so, but it is.
In the same way the infamous Westboro Baptist Church in the States can justify it's obnoxious teachings because everything they say is in the Bible. Most western Christians now choose to accept the nice bits and ignore the instructions to kill gays, witches, disobedient children, shellfish eaters etc.

It is to do with religion. Unfortunately for us, religion is bollocks.

FWIW I am not Muslim, in fact my country of origin has been at war with muslims on and off since 1947.

[GranadaJoe]

Apologies for the crappy attempt to only quote part of the post.

My points are now in italics.

[nut flush gooner]

Nut Flush

Whilst ISIL as an organisation was born fairly recently, it evolved out of mergers of other existing militant groups.
To claim the Iraq war was the cause? I see that as a misnomer.
Islam has been at war with the Christian West for around 1000 years.

It has everything to do with Islam.
To claim that what these people did in Paris was not in accordance with Islam, that they just had a twisted interpretation is not the full story.
There are too many people worldwide doing violence in the name of Islam, using Islamic scriptures to justify what they do, for anyone to justifiably claim there is no link to Islam for these atrocities.

I know that there are contradictions, that in one part of the Koran they tell Muslims to attack Jews, in other part they tell Muslims to treat Jews with respect.
It is part of the early history of Islam that Muhammad made war on the Jewish tribes of Arabia.
(That's one more bugbear, how many claim my people are recent invaders from Poland yet in their own scriptures they gloat over fighting with Jewish tribes in the Middle East 1400 years ago!)

But nothing short of changing the Koran is going to stop some of these attacks, and even then fanatics will continue.

I don't hate Muslims, and there are level headed Muslims who focus on charity and reason, but there are things in the very essence of that religion which need looking at.

Of course ISIL was a consequence of the Iraq war. The muslims that form ISIL are Sunni's. Iraq was ruled by a Sunni dictator ie Saddam Hussein. Ironically despite the fact that he was a dictator who killed many of his own people, relatively speaking it didn't come home to roost on our shores.

Possibly one of the reasons other extremists have joined forces with ISIL is these people are well educated intelligent well trained and capable of fighting a proper war (ie against combat troops) or a dirty war (using IED's and suicide bombers etc). They have also a propaganda machine using social media, which has meant that they can with relative ease recruit from Europe including the UK. It is commonly accepted that Al Queda do not have the expertise within their ranks to operate in the same way. So in a way ISIL does have a draw on people with extreme views.

My issue with the direction that this thread has taken is muslims are muslims. There is no distinction between the different tribes if you like. Ironically whenever there is an attrocity, they usually take out their own as well as the indegenous targets.

This is what right wing groups thrive on, ignorance that always seems to pop up whenever we have a discussion about muslim extremists.

Tony Blair and George Bush and now reaping what they sowed over 10 years ago.

[QuartzGooner]

Nut Flush

You have ignored my points in order to make your own anti Blair and Bush ones.
As if the Muslims of the MIddle East were just sitting around playing chess before 2003.

My main point is very straightforward.

This is not about ISIL in isolation.
This is about a long long history of Muslim atrocities against innocent people.

Was the 1929 Hebron massacre down to Bush and Blair?


ISIL
Al Queda
Fatah
Hamas
Hezbollah
Islamic Jihad
Al Shabab
The Iranian Revolutionary Guard
The Muslim Brotherhood
The Amal Militia
Lashkar-e-Taiba
The Taliban
Saddam Hussein
The Assad Family

And many massacres of non-Muslims over the years including

Tamerlane in the 15th century
Cordoba 1011
Granda 1066
Fez Massacre 1465
Libya 1785
Algeria 19th Century
Iraq 1344
Yemen 1940s

You claim Muslims usually take out their own as well as others.
I doubt you think that justifies what they have done?
But what point are you making with that?

I am not ignorant. I just have the common sense to say what needs to be said.

GranadaJoe

Nowhere in my liturgy does it say people are to be put to death for eating shellfish.

[nut flush gooner]

Nut Flush

You have ignored my points in order to make your own anti Blair and Bush ones.
As if the Muslims of the MIddle East were just sitting around playing chess before 2003.

My main point is very straightforward.

This is not about ISIL in isolation.
This is about a long long history of Muslim atrocities against innocent people.

Was the 1929 Hebron massacre down to Bush and Blair?


ISIL
Al Queda
Fatah
Hamas
Hezbollah
Islamic Jihad
Al Shabab
The Iranian Revolutionary Guard
The Muslim Brotherhood
The Amal Militia
Lashkar-e-Taiba
The Taliban
Saddam Hussein
The Assad Family

And many massacres of non-Muslims over the years including

Tamerlane in the 15th century
Cordoba 1011
Granda 1066
Fez Massacre 1465
Libya 1785
Algeria 19th Century
Iraq 1344
Yemen 1940s

You claim Muslims usually take out their own as well as others.
I doubt you think that justifies what they have done?
But what point are you making with that?

I am not ignorant. I just have the common sense to say what needs to be said.

You clearly aren't ignorant and know your history (sadly that isnt the case for a lot of posters) but if we are going back in time you could easily talk about massacres in India at the hands of the British empire. The human race has a history of barbaric events. I am playing poker right now its hard to play 6 tables and write a constructive comment, I may revert back over the next few days!

[northbank123]

There is no absolute dichotomy of peaceful Muslims (which would be the overwhelming majority) and vengeful terrorists. In between those two there must be thousands and thousands who would not go to these lengths that we saw in Paris but who see this sort of thing developing and do nothing.

With radicalisation taking place in mosques, schools etc - unless they are extremely clandestine and successful convert every extremist target then by nature there are plenty of people who would distance themselves and insist they are non extremists, yet have vital knowledge and do nothing about it. This does not apply to everyone but in general there have been massive failings in the Muslim community to weed out and report extremists and radicalisation, not to mention failure to condemn this sort of abhorrent behaviour.

What annoys me is saying "so and so is a peaceful religion". At the end of the day all religions are just a set of books and fairy tales and how people choose to interpret them is what matters. Almost every devout Christian I have ever met has been kind etc, but not only did people slaughter vast numbers in the name of that religion in the Middle Ages, you still get some right wing Evangelical nutters in America particularly who will carry out vile acts based on their warped perceptions and interpretations. Just because most followers interpret the Quran in a sensible and moderate way, it does not make it a peaceful religion when there are 80,000 people in this one following alone carrying out these barbaric acts. If moderate Islam wants to be distanced completely from these pigs then as communities they need to be doing infinitely more to condemn these acts and interpretations, and to help prevent similar occurrences. And putting some fucking French flag on your Facebook profile doesn't fucking cut it. If a group was going around slaughtering people in the name of Welsh independence or Arsenal Football club I would be pretty fucking desperate to help stop them in any way I could and make sure that it was crystal fucking clear to everybody that they do not represent my views or those of any halfway decent people.

To lay all the blame for this at Tony Blairs feet is fucking laughable - extremist terrorist groups were certainly not born in 2003, seem to remember something happening around Autumn 2001 that kicked a lot of this off.

[augie]

Invariably, there is always one fool who will try and defend or deflect anger from where it should be directed

Northbank, you are 100% correct when you say that the so called peaceful muslims are not doing enough (or are doing nothing at all) to prevent these attacks - surely if they don't condone the attacks then they should do what they can to stop them ? The truth is that their first loyalty is to their fellow muslims, and they might stop the terrorists corrupting other muslims, they still sit there quietly instead of reporting those that are dragging their name into the gutter

The great irony with a lot of these muslims is that they detest the western way of life, yet happily move over to the west to enjoy the trappings that the west provides them If you don't like music/loose women/lack of morality in the western world, then stay at home in your own backward countries and bask in your own prejudice's (sp )