Anti-Semitism is creeping back (28/1)

[thatgooner]

It is anti-Jewish not anti-Semitic, people seem to forget. I am a Semite and I don't find these songs offensive but a Jew would, therefore this matter is anti-Jewish. Public and media think that being anti-Semitic is being racist to Jews but it is not; it is being racist to Arabians and Jews at the same time. This means that Holocaust songs aren't anti-Semitic but are anti-Jewish.

Spurs fans call themselves, **** and **** Army. A Muslim, a Christian, a black, a white, an atheist can call himself a **** because he supports Tottenham. This means, the name has nothing to do with racial matter. Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

I pretty much got fed up of attending football matches due to the imbeciles I was forced to sit with all around me. It seems to be a cultural problem, by and large 80% of working class British people are racist, ignorant and pretty thick. Unfortunately, football matches attract this type of clientele.

You seem to stick up for Jews so much but you are generalising the working class so much, that it can be called "social racism". Why don't you buy a season-ticket in the corporate area and sit with the middle-class boys who won't make a noise during the match? You should remember that football wouldn't exist without us, the working-class people.

Thats a great post....
The fact that anyone from any background can call themselves a **** becasue they support tottenham means that singing songs against yidds has no reflection on the religeon anymore when sang at football.

[Cus Geezer]

Thats a great post....
The fact that anyone from any background can call themselves a **** because they support tottenham means that singing songs against yidds has no reflection on the religeon anymore when sang at football.

I don't think the fact that that poster was stupid enough to try to dress class-based snobbery as anti-racism detracks from the fact that '****' based chants are racist.

As I've pointed out few of those who support Tottenham are Jews, few of them live or have ever lived in Tottenham and Tottenham are only called the '****' in reference to the ethnic group who lived in the area.

There is no 'footballing' context of the word **** that isn't linked to it's racist context.

Would you except a white person who has lived there whole life in a white town in Essex calling themselves a 'paki' because they support a team from a 'paki' area?

[Cus Geezer]

The one and only reason for people singing these songs is to rile up opposition supporters, not because they are in favour of the extermination of Jews, fact.

I've read some fucking nonsense on this subject, but this tops it.

How the fuck is a predominantly non-Jewish Spurs crowd going to be any more riled up about Holocaust chanting than anyone else?

P.S. If we can assume that they're not in favour of gassing Jews then how about singing some songs about another subject altogether like.....um......I don't know.....Tottenham Hotspur Football Club perhaps?

[RaM]

Does anyone here know any Jews and/or their stance on the issue?

I think getting that kind of opinion would be a more definitive way of ending the argument.

Also, can someone clarify for me why the term '****' is deemed offensive? I always thought it was just an abbreviation of the name 'Yiddish' which describes a part of the Jewish community. (Eastern European ones maybe?)

[RC8]

People who chant anti-Jewish songs with reference to the holocaust should be kicked out of the stadium. But to be honest I don't think the use of the word "****" is offensive. I know plenty of Tottenham fans and none of them find it offensive, not even the ones who come from Jewish families.

Gooners is an insult as well, but none of us takes it as such. We embraced that word as ours, and so did the Tottenham supporters with the word "****".

It would be a pretty fucked up world if they were allowed to sing "**** Army", but if you answered back you were looked upon as a racist. It makes no sense. It's like black people who get offended when the word nigger is used. I didn't grow up with racism around me, at all. I grew up in South America. I've got blue eyes, and while I found it funny because it was a piss take, I never got offended when some friends called me "catire" (blonde hair). I had plenty of black classmates also. The darkest, we'd call "Negro", and that was his nickname. It would have been foolish to get offended.

If people truly want to end racism, they should not have any "prohibited" terms. They should grow up and stop giving racist bastards the ammo to attack others with a single word.

[RaM]

RCB, that was my opinion when the English U21's complained of racist comments from the crowd.

If people make a big deal of racism, the antagonists only enjoy it more and will hence continue.

Once people recognise racism for what it truly is - petty insults made to make one feel more secure in themselves at the expense of others - and choose to ignore it, the problem will seem a lot less than it does now.

[gooner.ed]

Does anyone here know any Jews and/or their stance on the issue?

I think getting that kind of opinion would be a more definitive way of ending the argument.

Also, can someone clarify for me why the term '****' is deemed offensive? I always thought it was just an abbreviation of the name 'Yiddish' which describes a part of the Jewish community. (Eastern European ones maybe?)

I've had emails thanking me for the editorial from Jewish Arsenal fans. I think it's fair to say that their stance on people singing songs advocating the mass extermination of their kind would make them feel both insulted and threatened. That doesn't require much thought.

As for the 'y' word. Here's what it says on wikipedia. As this is an exercise in education, I have left the offending word fully spelt out, not something I would do in any other context.

Begins -

The word **** (Yiddish: ייד, pronounced [jid]) is a slang Jewish ethnonym. Its usage may be controversial in modern English language. It is not offensive when pronounced /ˈjiːd/ (rhyming with deed), the way Yiddish-speakers say it. When pronounced /ˈjɪd/ (rhyming with did), it can generally be perceived as a pejorative—and is used as a derogatory epithet by antisemites.

Supporters of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. adopted a nickname "****" (or "Yiddo") and often identify as "**** Army". Used as a badge of pride, such usage is not without a controversy.

(continues later)

Fans of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. adopted "****" (or "Yiddo") as a nickname and "Yiddo, Yiddo!" as a battle cry and often identify themselves as "**** Army". While such usage remains controversial, for the overwhelming majority of Tottenham supporters, it is used with pride. Some Tottenham supporters use it with a political consciousness of the club as a bastion against racism and antisemitism. Others use it simply due to the fact that many of the fans and owners of the club are Jews. However, the name was first given to the supporters as an insult, due to the large Jewish following at the club. The racist chant "Yiddo" is used to taunt the club when playing as well.

- ends.

So in the same way that the 'n' word for black people has been appropriated in the language of American (and later British) black people, so Spurs fans adopted a word originally addressed at them as an insult, reflecting a prejudice against Jewish people. So although Spurs fans may refer to themselves with the word, that doesn't make it acceptable to repeat the original insult that created the phenomenon.

I'm afraid some of the views on this issue reflect the Ron Atkinson school of racial awareness. Some people just do not get it due to the way their minds have been shaped by their experiences and influences. All I can say to those who really can't make sense of why it's wrong to use the 'y' word, let alone sing songs celebrating the holocaust is to simply attempt to refrain from doing so, even if you can't see what is wrong with it.

When we come into the world, we feel no prejudice whatsoever. What a sad f**ked up world it is that by the time we reach adulthood we seem to carry it by the bucketload.

[REB]

sorry but to me its simple,, if they stop calling themselfs **** army then the gooners will stop using the word
and no i dont think arsenal fans are been racist,,

anywy this is what the herd think of all this,, cus you wont like it

http://www.wearetheherd.com/forum/index ... =11892&hl=

[SPUDMASHER]

It is anti-Jewish not anti-Semitic, people seem to forget. I am a Semite and I don't find these songs offensive but a Jew would, therefore this matter is anti-Jewish. Public and media think that being anti-Semitic is being racist to Jews but it is not; it is being racist to Arabians and Jews at the same time. This means that Holocaust songs aren't anti-Semitic but are anti-Jewish.

Spurs fans call themselves, **** and **** Army. A Muslim, a Christian, a black, a white, an atheist can call himself a **** because he supports Tottenham. This means, the name has nothing to do with racial matter. Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

I pretty much got fed up of attending football matches due to the imbeciles I was forced to sit with all around me. It seems to be a cultural problem, by and large 80% of working class British people are racist, ignorant and pretty thick. Unfortunately, football matches attract this type of clientele.

You seem to stick up for Jews so much but you are generalising the working class so much, that it can be called "social racism". Why don't you buy a season-ticket in the corporate area and sit with the middle-class boys who won't make a noise during the match? You should remember that football wouldn't exist without us, the working-class people.

Thats a great post....
The fact that anyone from any background can call themselves a **** becasue they support tottenham means that singing songs against yidds has no reflection on the religeon anymore when sang at football.

I see where you are going with that Khalid but I'm sorry I cannot agree.
Lets say for example that Rotherham Uniteds fans start to refer to themselves as n*ggers. Would that make it okay for us all to stand chanting offensively about n*ggers? No it wouldn't and neither should it.
It's not just about those that choose to label themselves with a name. There are other people that attend football matches/watch on tv/listen to the radio etc. that do not associate themselves with the term and they could be offended.

The bottom line is it not necessary.

[Cus Geezer]

sorry but to me its simple,, if they stop calling themselfs **** army then the gooners will stop using the word
and no i dont think arsenal fans are been racist,,

anywy this is what the herd think of all this,, cus you wont like it

http://www.wearetheherd.com/forum/index ... =11892&hl=

Well I'm at work and can't see what the herd have written as it is websensed.

But if it's simple to you, it's even simpler for me. The appropriation of the word came from the original insult. If it were only Spurs fans using the word now, it will be they who will face the censure of the Jewish community and facing threats of legal action. Thus it would be Spurs alone that would be forced to clamp down on it. If there were no opposing fans still using it as an insult the whole phenomena would die within a season or two.

As for the link of **** chants and the holocaust, well if there is a generalisation I can make about football fans (without resorting to labelling them thick racists), they are usually young lads trying to outdo each other in the lairiness stakes.

Therefore if **** chants are accepted it's only a matter of time before a small but audiable group try to push the boundaries with holocaust chants. Without tolerance of the former the latter would be stunted at birth.

[RaM]

Anyone ever heard that old children's saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."?





I don't think Arsenal fans are deliberately being racist, its just a case of one group of supporters havin' a go at the other. If people let them know that it is offensive, then the true racists will be the ones who continue it. If one group stops, so will the other.

[Rozinho]

It would be a pretty fucked up world if they were allowed to sing "**** Army", but if you answered back you were looked upon as a racist. It makes no sense. It's like black people who get offended when the word nigger is used.

I might be wrong, but are you saying I shouldn't get offended if someone called me a nigger?

Most Tottenham fans that I know don't find the word **** offensive, they sing the songs themselves. "The famous Tottenham Hotspurs went to Rome to see the Pope". Is that offensive to Catholics and Jews? And I really don't think it's "working class" people who are the ignorant ones. Class has nothing to do with ignorance or racism.

[Graham Wilkinson]

Since everybody else is giving their views, let me offer mine.

Singing holocaust songs: Totally, utterly unacceptable and a disgrace to the good name of the club.

VCC said earlier on this thread that anyone who grasses a fan to a steward is killing the game. I disagree when the action in question is as bad as that being discussed here. At the league game at WHL earlier this season, I complained to a steward (who took no action)about a couple of our "fans" who were singing holocausrt songs. I would unhesitatingly do it again and would encourage anyone else to do the same in those circumstances.

The Y-word: I accept that most fans, when they use it, are not intending to be offensive or anti-semitic. However, there is no doubt that it does offend a significant section of Arsenal fans. So we shouldn't use it.

I have always regarded Arsenal fans as one large family. If there is an action which upsets some of your family, you don't do it. It's as simple as that.

[matmos]

Does anyone here know any Jews and/or their stance on the issue?

I think getting that kind of opinion would be a more definitive way of ending the argument.

Also, can someone clarify for me why the term '****' is deemed offensive? I always thought it was just an abbreviation of the name 'Yiddish' which describes a part of the Jewish community. (Eastern European ones maybe?)

I'm Jewish. I understand that the phrase **** is not specifically anti-Jewish when used by Spurs. My concern is that when used by Gooners it takes a more dubious, nastier tone. People might not intend to offend Jews but singing songs about foreskins hanging out is anti-jewish not anti-spurs.

Personally, I dont see the relevance today of Spurs calling themselves ****. More Jews attend Arsenal nowadays than Spurs. Including Keith Edelman, the club is dominated by Jews. Spurs fans are ignorant idiots and dont know what they are singing but we shouldnt encourage it. We are Arsenal, we are better than that. If we are singing gas chamber songs then all Arsenal fans should hang their heads in shame.

I dont really understand Khalid's point
"It is anti-Jewish not anti-Semitic, people seem to forget. I am a Semite and I don't find these songs offensive but a Jew would, therefore this matter is anti-Jewish. Public and media think that being anti-Semitic is being racist to Jews but it is not; it is being racist to Arabians and Jews at the same time. This means that Holocaust songs aren't anti-Semitic but are anti-Jewish".

You should find it offensive, just as i find anti-arab songs offensive. You're wrong its still anti-semitic because Jews are a semitic people. Just as an anti-arab chant would be anti-semitic even if not directed at Jews. You seem to want to distance yourself from Jews but ignore something we should all be ashamed of - Racism in any form.

The word **** is not particularly offensive as such but it has come to be a term of abuse like Paki which is only an abbreviation but would offend most Pakistanis.

We cant stop spurts calling themselves **** but we can stop using the phrase ourselves.

[QuartzGooner]

1.) In the football context, "****" is acceptable as it is used as anti Spurs word, but really I would prefer if it was not used as it is too often used as term of abuse.

2.) There are so many Arsenal fans who are Jewish. Not that different as percentage from Spurs. In fact, Jews were first "ethnic" minority to support Arsenal en masse, starting in 1920's when Finsbury Park was a Jewish area.

3.) Arsenal pride ourselves on our multi ethnic international players and supporters..we have many African and West Indian origin players both Christian and Muslim, plus two Jewish directors, and a Jewish ex vice Chairman. Let's be proud of that, especially when we get so much flak from other fans for being "non English"!!!

4.) To Khaled - the word "anti-Semitism" means "anti Jewish" when used in the Western World. Although Semites are also Muslims (technically all descendants of Shem, Noah's son), to argue that anti-Semitism refers to Arabs as well is just a diversive tactic.

5.) To the poster who argues that supporting Israel is somehow akin to supporting the Holocaust, that is just ridiculous. Your grandfather served his country in the war, and yes, there was Jewish terrorism against theBritish in the years up to 1948...which is regretable. But without lanching into a long history/politics discussion, there were simple reasons for that, and simple reasons as to why Israel now fights terrorists from Gaza etc. It's called war! To equate Israel with Nazis is offensive and absurd, at no point has or is Israel involved in genocide. Please do not rely on the BBC and Guardian for your news on that topic, it is simply mis informed.