Tony Adams praises Danny Fiszman

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

MM99 wrote: But he's not the one that's banging on about his 'theory' all the time. The onus is on you to produce the evidence as that is all you talk about and you claim it to be the absolute truth without giving thought to other people's views. The fact that you don't realise this just shows how much of a pain it is to 'debate' with you.
We are not in a court of law MM99, there is no burden of proof for one side as opposed to another. The whole point of my COPS skit was precisely that. The cops don't have the final say over guilt or innicocnece they simply objectively the evidence and present it to the prosecuotrs who decide whther to present the case for arraignnment, and if the case is held over for trial then we get into the issue of reasonable doubt so many seem to want to hange their hat on here.

The problem is that standard is based on a far more complete presentation and examination of far more evidence than the initial investigation often turns up that leads to arrest arraignment and finally trial.

Basically there are three real components to look at and we all know them just watching any old cop show - motive, means and opporunnity. Both the Board and Arsene Wenger can be said to have the same - the decision not to spend more money. They can both be said to have the same opporutnity perhaps.

But the motive is the rreal issue. What makes more sense as a motive? A manager with a big ego proving a point that might cost him millions if he gets sacked for dioing it, or a group of business man and women with an opportunity to make millions of pounds?

The fact that undenaibly the Board has a far stronger motive to have limited howw much money the manager had to spend proves nothing more than that. But it does prove that we should not ignore or discount that possibility just because we would rather deliberately perhaps blame someone else for something we know may not be their fault . What does knowingly choosing to hang an innocent man may do for Arsenal? And what does it say about all of us who chooose to do so?

northbankbren
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Post by northbankbren »

cough cough....evidence.

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SWLGooner
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Post by SWLGooner »

USMartin wrote: The problem with that it it supposes with should believe other thingsd with no concrete endidence whatsoever supporting those caims Is that in fact any different at all from doing what I am doing as you suggest (and I respectfully disagree to some extent)?

My sense is that we do not know a with real certainty what is happening or why or wthether the club's best intersts have been protected by those entrusted by us to protect them, and thus we should be concerned about every possibility and express our concern about every possibility if we genuinely want the change we all want to see.

I don't think focusing solely on any one possibility or ignoring any other possibilities achieves anything. You can't fix a problem if you deliberately ignore it. You can fix a problem by falsesly diagnosing what it is. You can only fix what's broken if you can identify what is broken. Ignoring what you know is or may be broken will not let you fix anything.
I'll ignore your first paragraph as I simply can't understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify that Martin. Fuck that sounds patronising, but I don't follow.

I disagree on the certainty point, I think we've got plenty of reason to believe it's AW fucking it all up.

And if I can fix a problem by falsely diagnosing what it is then surely you've fixed it and we'll win the league? Think not.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

northbankbren wrote:cough cough....evidence.
What a neat double standard - we need evidence proving allegations to raise legitimate questions but need no evidence disporoving them to ignore them? Surely you aren't saying that, Bren?

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Post by northbankbren »

USMartin wrote:
northbankbren wrote:cough cough....evidence.
What a neat double standard - we need evidence proving allegations to raise legitimate questions but need no evidence disporoving them to ignore them? Surely you aren't saying that, Bren?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I dont even know what your supposed to have evidence of marty :lol:

But clearly you claimed to have evidence you dont have :lol:

US I do think you add to this place, but i have to ask a couple of questions, that i plead you to answer honestly....

Do you think that the posts you make on here could make you come across a bit obsessive? A bit stubborn? A bit annoying?

BUT MY MAIN QUESTION.

Why dont you ever post on anything other than the board?

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

SWLGooner wrote: I'll ignore your first paragraph as I simply can't understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify that Martin. Fuck that sounds patronising, but I don't follow.
No patromizing clearly. I thought it was well expressed but can see your point.Actually your point below about reason to be elieve what you do is my point. To many people are happy with reason to believe what they want to believe but demand definite proof or sokoning guns and clear undenaible evidence to even consider what they do not want to believe and in some cases I sense even that would not be enough.

Since no one is on trial and no one is paid to defend anybody here I do not understand why anyone on anyside of this debate will willfully use a different evidentiary standard to embrace or rule out any possibility about what is happening or why given the stakes to something that for all our differences we all feel very deeply about and that is Arsenal and its future success.
SWLGooner wrote: I disagree on the certainty point, I think we've got plenty of reason to believe it's AW fucking it all up.
Such as what? And what factual foundation is that reason built upon?

As i said above I find it hard to understand why any Gooner for professes his first concern is what is best for the football club and the football team that is its living representative would have aa different standard of fact for questioning the conduct of the manager than they are willing to apply for questioning the conduct of anyone else at the club including obviously the Arsenal Board.

I Just don't get that. i'm sure none of us would teach our kids to behave that way. I'm sure we would all point out the truth is the truth and that is all that matters even if the truth is unpoopular or incovienient or upsetting.
SWLGooner wrote:And if I can fix a problem by falsely diagnosing what it is then surely you've fixed it and we'll win the league? Think not.
No. But we do in fact know that when more money was spent in the transfer market and on a top-weithed wage structure under the same manager we were more successful than at anytime since I suspect all but maybe one or two of us at most on here were even born.

So we have two theses -

1) that The Board held back investment in the football team to use that money to increase the value of their shareholdings before selling the club

or

2) that the manager driven by some egotistical desire to prove his superiority refused to spend additional money made available to him by the manager

the problem as i see is no matter how many reasons you can see to prove the latter is correct I can see at least 50 to 100 MILLION more reasons the former may be true.

The problem is that if we discount the theses we simply don't want to believe and we discount the wrong thesis how many more years of all of this disappointment heartbreak frustration and anger and how many more years of turning on one another over it?

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Post by Deise Gooner »

If your so concerned fucking do something about :banghead: If not stop banging on about the same nonsense every member of this forum has read at least 100 of your posts so we are well aware of your theory seriously enough is enough. Your clearly have too much time on your hands and wouldnt you agree that the time you spend on here could be used constructively on writing a report to submit to the AST or something along those lines?

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

northbankbren wrote:
USMartin wrote:
northbankbren wrote:cough cough....evidence.
What a neat double standard - we need evidence proving allegations to raise legitimate questions but need no evidence disporoving them to ignore them? Surely you aren't saying that, Bren?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I dont even know what your supposed to have evidence of marty :lol:

But clearly you claimed to have evidence you dont have :lol:

US I do think you add to this place, but i have to ask a couple of questions, that i plead you to answer honestly....

Do you think that the posts you make on here could make you come across a bit obsessive? A bit stubborn? A bit annoying?

BUT MY MAIN QUESTION.

Why dont you ever post on anything other than the board?
No Bren I did not claim to have evidence I do not have. I stated that all of the evidence I had all already presented viewed together at once made a very strong case for questioning the Board's actions and the motives behind them.

The problem is too many people proudly an openly hold out a double standard for trusting and for questioning the Board.

They are happy to take the Board at its word without exception or question no matter what they say or whether the facts match their words. But if you are to even consider questioning anything the Board says or does or what their motives might be you must have as I was informed definite proof that they have in fact acted improperly already.

That is the same intellectual conduct and intellectual standard of objectivity as a judge who imposes more or less severe sentences for the same crime based upon the criminal's race, ethniciity or wealth (or lack of it). The truth is theruth and that is all that should matter to us especially given what is at stake now and for years and maybe decades to come.

Am I obsessed about this issue? Yes. I come from an hour outside Boston,MA. That is where in 1918 Harry Frazee sold babe Rityh to the New York Yankees acouple of years after they won the world Series in 1918 so he could produce a Broadway musical with the money. The Yankees had never won a World Series to that point, but the Yankess won their first four wWorld Championships with Ruth their key player, and went on to win 26 world Champoinshipds betwenn 1919-2003 while the Boston Red Sox World Champs in 1915,1916 and 1918 with Ruth wone NONE in those years.

To put things in perspective in 2004 when it had been 43 years since s***s last won the First Division Preniership their drought was only half as long as the RedSox drought that finally ended. There are families in Boston where literally five generations of Red Sox fans were born and died without ever knowing the joy of seeing their team be Champions of their sport. And we have a clue of how awful that is right up the Seven Sisters. Yes I don't want that tio happen or come close to happening to my club and my team.

Am I stubborn? Do I even have to answer? Given the stakes I have every roight to be stubborn. Given the constant abuse and invective amied at me and the fact that I won't back dwon from that I'm only going to be even more stubborn.

Am I annoying? I think that question depends on the context. yes some people who don't want to think about certain things I say are going to find that annoying. But is their lack of desire to consider views they don't weant and often don't want anyone else to why I'm annoying or is it simply the annoying faces I am making. Is what I say annoying because its nothing but lies or more a case of it being an incovienient truth (i have heard that somewhere before)
Last edited by USMartin on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SWLGooner
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Post by SWLGooner »

Marty shoot me your email and I'll paypal you enough for some properly good pot. I want to see what you post when you are high.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

SWLGooner wrote:Marty shoot me your email and I'll paypal you enough for some properly good pot. I want to see what you post when you are high.
Don't smoke anything - anything...

Now what about what I did say here?
Last edited by USMartin on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

:oops: make sure you don't hit quote when you mean to hit edit :oops:
Last edited by USMartin on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SWLGooner
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Post by SWLGooner »

USMartin wrote:
SWLGooner wrote:Marty shoot me your email and I'll paypal you enough for some properly good pot. I want to see what you post when you are high.
Don't smoke anything - anything...
Is that American for "If you can get me some Charlie I'd rather have that?"
:lol: :lol:

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

SWLGooner wrote:
USMartin wrote:
SWLGooner wrote:Marty shoot me your email and I'll paypal you enough for some properly good pot. I want to see what you post when you are high.
Don't smoke anything - anything...
Is that American for "If you can get me some Charlie I'd rather have that?"
:lol: :lol:
No :lol: :lol: :lol: ....I have epilepsy so really I'm not even supposed to drink let alone screw with drugs...though I kinda forget that sometimes.

The worst thing is the cause is indeterminate...I haven't had a seizure in over decade close to two now but still have to take medication and be careful about certain stuff anyway. Even if I go anopther 60m years without another seizure I'll be taking meds for it likely till the day i die...hopefully alittle while from now :lol:

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Post by flash gunner »

flash gunner wrote:Martin dont you get bored talking about the samw stuff day after day after day after day?

If youre right what is the point of going on about it? What are you hoping to achieve here? If we all end up agreeing with you, then what?.....
Fancy answering the above Martin? ^^^

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

[quote="flash gunner"] [quote="flash gunner"]Martin dont you get bored talking about the samw stuff day after day after day after day?


I have answered these but I don't mind answering again.

To the first part. Do I get bored? Sure I do. But in all honesty that isn't as important to me as trying to rouse at least some support for some effort to at least get the Board's attention that we are concerned about what is going on and why, whatever that actually may be. That alone is all that will get them to consider our concerns at this point and address them in what every way is in fact necessary to correct them.

So yes its boring as are the autonmatic knee-jerk ad hominem attacks I get the same way from the same people evbery time I post on this (including the same old posts from this gut with a black guy with a huge ‘fro in his avy :lol: ) But I think what is happening and the consequnces for the football team and thus for us matters more than any of that. Read about the Curse of the Bambino.

Over-reaction? Maybe. But I’m sure there was some version of me at the ballgames back in 1919… and 1929… and 1939…and at the bars watching the games on TV in 1949…and 1959…and 1969….and some guy like calling the radio phone- in shows in 1979…and 1989….and in the Chat rooms in 1994…and 1998….and 2002….and I’m sure there was some version of you all those years questioning my concerns and my judgment and even my mental health too….

As I said before I don’t want ANY Gooner to have to endure s***s *word censored* holding up a sign reading 2004….OH DEAR… not even once and no Gooner should want that for any reason or to preserve anything else…

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