3rd will be the new 4throdders999 wrote:WTF???clockender1 wrote:what is that ? - six seasons now knocked at at this stage ?
hardly "sitting on the shoulder of European Giants" are we Ivan ?
and FWIW we just lost the PL the 4th place team in 2017/18....
just in time for wengers retirement.
Is this true? The fourth place trophy will be no more? I shall never climax again
Highly unlikely as England is still second in the coefficient table. A disastrous season for English clubs next season may change that as we drop season 10/11 from the 5 year average. That was a great year for English clubs. So your annual mega orgasm is safe for now Rodders.rodders999 wrote:WTF???clockender1 wrote:what is that ? - six seasons now knocked at at this stage ?
hardly "sitting on the shoulder of European Giants" are we Ivan ?
and FWIW we just lost the PL the 4th place team in 2017/18....
just in time for wengers retirement.
Is this true? The fourth place trophy will be no more? I shall never climax again
I'm splitting hairs, but I'd guess that Koscielny has played in most, if not all of those knock out games.Bradywasking wrote:Five years since Arsenal won a knockout game in Europe (qualifying rounds exempt) that ensured progress to the next round. Many players have tried in that five years but only one manager.
Not going to check them all, but Koscielny, Walcott and Szczesney started the first one against Barca in the five year run. The point I am making is regardless of the players (and that is not saying they are exempt from responsibility) the results have stayed the same and the manger has stayed the same. He isn't learning, isn't interested in learning or isn't capable of learning from the past.kiwomya wrote:I'm splitting hairs, but I'd guess that Koscielny has played in most, if not all of those knock out games.Bradywasking wrote:Five years since Arsenal won a knockout game in Europe (qualifying rounds exempt) that ensured progress to the next round. Many players have tried in that five years but only one manager.
That's an absolutely disgusting record.Gunner Rob wrote:in his 19 years in the CL Wenger has only managed to reach the QFs six times.
a total embarrassment and a fraud. even when we had a good team domestically he failed on the european stage.
.......you arrogant prick Wonga. They didn't have to turn up for the second game, as other teams haven't had to in recent years because Arsenal bottled it completely in the first game. NO LEADERSHIP. One of the many problems with your inept and laughable attempts at management.Monaco not worthy winners
Peter Wood wrote:
Arsene Wenger still an expert in glorious failure
Arsenal make it interesting with two goals on the road but fail to advance to the quarterfinals of the Champions League, falling to Monaco on away goals.
This is how it is for Arsenal right now. They're once again out of the Champions League after a relatively close game that left the fans feeling rather buoyant -- that's five seasons in a row Arsenal have exited at the round of 16 stage. Yet there doesn't seem to be much ill feeling around the manager and his efforts. If anything, the mood is rather positive.
Why is that? Over the past 10 years, and most definitely the past five, Arsene Wenger has proved an expert in glorious failure. The Arsenal manager never fails quite hard enough for there to be a reaction or serious introspection -- fans are always left with a glimmer of hope, thinking: "Well, that was a pretty good effort. I mean, a little tinker here and there and we could win it all."
In the league, Wenger will always oversee a top-four finish, either after a terrible start that ends with a miraculous run-in or after a brilliant start that raises title hopes that peter out miserably.
In the Champions League, the trend has been to go so close you can't really call it anything other than a solid try that deserves a patronising pat on the back. In 2013, Arsenal beat Bayern Munich in the away leg when no one thought it were possible only to exit on away goals. In 2012, they came within a goal of forcing extra time after losing the first leg 4-0 at AC Milan. They've taken Barcelona close, losing 4-3 on aggregate in 2011. On Tuesday night, they put two past a Monaco side that didn't concede a single goal at the Stade Louis II in the group stage, which in itself seemed like a miracle, but the team couldn't put it over the line for a third time.
So what are the hard talking points? Well, putting aside a very good team effort (albeit under little pressure as the tie was dead and buried according to most), we know that Arsenal are still not there as a club in terms of their preparation. The absolute killer for the Londoners was the lack of a game plan in the first leg of the tie. Arsenal have shown on a few occasions this season they have the stomach for smart tactics, but they're generally used against teams such as Manchester City and Chelsea.
Arsenal have still yet to suss out smart thinking against tank-parking teams. They went into the Monaco home leg thinking it would be a cakewalk; Monaco boss Leonardo Jardim knew exactly what was coming and defeated the north Londoners with clever counterattacking and rock-solid defensive work.
"Right now we're celebrating and we think Arsenal did not show enough respect during the first leg," Jardim said. "Arsenal were really happy to play Monaco as we were supposed to be one of the weakest teams. All the teams in the last 16 wanted to play us."
It's a damning assessment, but one that rings true. Wenger has qualified for the Champions League 17 times successively. This is an incredible achievement whichever way you choose to look at it. However, the elephant in the room is that, with all the exposure to Europe's elite club competition, why has he only been in one final and why has he never won it?
There have been seven exits at the round of 16 stage, a further two back in the days of the second group stage, and four quarterfinal exits. He has taken Arsenal to the last four on only two occasions, with the 2-1 defeat to Barcelona in the 2006 final the closest he has come so far -- and that despite having a youth-oriented squad that appeared to be among the least equipped to challenge for the trophy. The 2005-06 team might have outperformed the others because of the fact they adopted a robust 4-5-1 to counter the fact they were so weak in comparison to the competition.
Arsene Wenger has led Arsenal into the last four of the Champions League just twice in 17 attempts.
The current side, despite having more experience, is not nearly as robust as it should be and, continuing on the theme of preparation, it still appears that there is a lack of collective intelligence at Arsenal. This for me is a training aspect of the game. The players have shown this season that collective accountability isn't always top of the agenda. The biggest shame of the home leg against Monaco is that the team fought tirelessly to pull themselves back into the game, when Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain rifled a late goal into the top corner, only to then concede within minutes to put the game beyond their reach.
In that situation, where is the manager barking orders at the players to sit back and live to fight another day? Where is the captain calming the players? Why is the experience of a squad that has a median age of 26 not on show to see that result home at 2-1? Arsenal can't claim immaturity -- they have World Cup winners at their disposal. It's just collective dimness that creeps in during the big games.
Arsenal will generally always come unstuck at the highest level because they still operate on ideals more suited to the 1990s, when having good players who were fitter than the opposition was enough to win big in most cases. The manager isn't a master analyst anymore and he's generally refused to move into the 21st century. In a world of video, it's telling that only this season has video analysis even been on the agenda -- in January, the manager admitted after the Manchester City game that it was the players who demanded a more tactical approach. When the tail is wagging the dog, a football club is always going to struggle to blaze a trail. The manager should be leading the innovation charge, not hearing about it second-hand from his players.
The painful reality is this: Arsenal don't have a leader with the relevant skill set to win the Champions League. Wenger has put together a squad that on paper isn't far off being very, very competitive, but sadly, unless you have the absolute best players in the business, you need to have a game plan (and not even the best teams boast master planners). You need tactics and thinking in every game. You need deep postgame and pregame analysis. You need innovation. You need world-class fitness. You need a culture within the setup that forces accountability. You need a manager who says, "I'll do whatever it takes to give my players the tools to succeed."
Arsenal don't have the above. Which is why, until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.
Read the comments in response to the article thoughdPmunky wrote:ok, which one of you guys wrote this.... ???
reads as any number of pages on this thread.
http://www.espnfc.us/club/arsenal/359/b ... -to-monaco
text of the article
Peter Wood wrote:
Arsene Wenger still an expert in glorious failure
Arsenal make it interesting with two goals on the road but fail to advance to the quarterfinals of the Champions League, falling to Monaco on away goals.
This is how it is for Arsenal right now. They're once again out of the Champions League after a relatively close game that left the fans feeling rather buoyant -- that's five seasons in a row Arsenal have exited at the round of 16 stage. Yet there doesn't seem to be much ill feeling around the manager and his efforts. If anything, the mood is rather positive.
Why is that? Over the past 10 years, and most definitely the past five, Arsene Wenger has proved an expert in glorious failure. The Arsenal manager never fails quite hard enough for there to be a reaction or serious introspection -- fans are always left with a glimmer of hope, thinking: "Well, that was a pretty good effort. I mean, a little tinker here and there and we could win it all."
In the league, Wenger will always oversee a top-four finish, either after a terrible start that ends with a miraculous run-in or after a brilliant start that raises title hopes that peter out miserably.
In the Champions League, the trend has been to go so close you can't really call it anything other than a solid try that deserves a patronising pat on the back. In 2013, Arsenal beat Bayern Munich in the away leg when no one thought it were possible only to exit on away goals. In 2012, they came within a goal of forcing extra time after losing the first leg 4-0 at AC Milan. They've taken Barcelona close, losing 4-3 on aggregate in 2011. On Tuesday night, they put two past a Monaco side that didn't concede a single goal at the Stade Louis II in the group stage, which in itself seemed like a miracle, but the team couldn't put it over the line for a third time.
So what are the hard talking points? Well, putting aside a very good team effort (albeit under little pressure as the tie was dead and buried according to most), we know that Arsenal are still not there as a club in terms of their preparation. The absolute killer for the Londoners was the lack of a game plan in the first leg of the tie. Arsenal have shown on a few occasions this season they have the stomach for smart tactics, but they're generally used against teams such as Manchester City and Chelsea.
Arsenal have still yet to suss out smart thinking against tank-parking teams. They went into the Monaco home leg thinking it would be a cakewalk; Monaco boss Leonardo Jardim knew exactly what was coming and defeated the north Londoners with clever counterattacking and rock-solid defensive work.
"Right now we're celebrating and we think Arsenal did not show enough respect during the first leg," Jardim said. "Arsenal were really happy to play Monaco as we were supposed to be one of the weakest teams. All the teams in the last 16 wanted to play us."
It's a damning assessment, but one that rings true. Wenger has qualified for the Champions League 17 times successively. This is an incredible achievement whichever way you choose to look at it. However, the elephant in the room is that, with all the exposure to Europe's elite club competition, why has he only been in one final and why has he never won it?
There have been seven exits at the round of 16 stage, a further two back in the days of the second group stage, and four quarterfinal exits. He has taken Arsenal to the last four on only two occasions, with the 2-1 defeat to Barcelona in the 2006 final the closest he has come so far -- and that despite having a youth-oriented squad that appeared to be among the least equipped to challenge for the trophy. The 2005-06 team might have outperformed the others because of the fact they adopted a robust 4-5-1 to counter the fact they were so weak in comparison to the competition.
Arsene Wenger has led Arsenal into the last four of the Champions League just twice in 17 attempts.
The current side, despite having more experience, is not nearly as robust as it should be and, continuing on the theme of preparation, it still appears that there is a lack of collective intelligence at Arsenal. This for me is a training aspect of the game. The players have shown this season that collective accountability isn't always top of the agenda. The biggest shame of the home leg against Monaco is that the team fought tirelessly to pull themselves back into the game, when Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain rifled a late goal into the top corner, only to then concede within minutes to put the game beyond their reach.
In that situation, where is the manager barking orders at the players to sit back and live to fight another day? Where is the captain calming the players? Why is the experience of a squad that has a median age of 26 not on show to see that result home at 2-1? Arsenal can't claim immaturity -- they have World Cup winners at their disposal. It's just collective dimness that creeps in during the big games.
Arsenal will generally always come unstuck at the highest level because they still operate on ideals more suited to the 1990s, when having good players who were fitter than the opposition was enough to win big in most cases. The manager isn't a master analyst anymore and he's generally refused to move into the 21st century. In a world of video, it's telling that only this season has video analysis even been on the agenda -- in January, the manager admitted after the Manchester City game that it was the players who demanded a more tactical approach. When the tail is wagging the dog, a football club is always going to struggle to blaze a trail. The manager should be leading the innovation charge, not hearing about it second-hand from his players.
The painful reality is this: Arsenal don't have a leader with the relevant skill set to win the Champions League. Wenger has put together a squad that on paper isn't far off being very, very competitive, but sadly, unless you have the absolute best players in the business, you need to have a game plan (and not even the best teams boast master planners). You need tactics and thinking in every game. You need deep postgame and pregame analysis. You need innovation. You need world-class fitness. You need a culture within the setup that forces accountability. You need a manager who says, "I'll do whatever it takes to give my players the tools to succeed."
Arsenal don't have the above. Which is why, until Wenger moves on, they'll always be the also-rans in the major competitions. A club in elite purgatory. Always good enough to make it to the big race, never fast or smart enough to push over the finish line in first place. That's all about the manager. Until he changes, Arsenal fans will continue to celebrate glorious failure.
L'Equipe :Arsenal slump to predictable glorious failure in Champions League
Telegraph :Once again the Gunners exit in magnificent defeat, like an eternal loser’
right headline from the torygraph but wrong target - its wenger who has the mental weakness, not the players.Arsenal must resolve their mental weakness or they will remain doomed to failure
