The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[A11M11]

It's an established fact that we need medically trained people.If they come from the sub continent so be it. It gives us time to train our own , something that has been badly lacking in our own system. We need to fund education of both professional and manual labour and we need to fast track in the most urgently required occupations hence the grammar school policy. Bringing through these people takes time as the process starts about 10 years old so we need a stop gap to improve now. People that enter the country with something to offer , work , pay tax and generally enter society are no problem. That is what I understand controlling our borders is about.

[Gunner Rob]

It's an established fact that we need medically trained people.If they come from the sub continent so be it. It gives us time to train our own , something that has been badly lacking in our own system. We need to fund education of both professional and manual labour and we need to fast track in the most urgently required occupations hence the grammar school policy. Bringing through these people takes time as the process starts about 10 years old so we need a stop gap to improve now. People that enter the country with something to offer , work , pay tax and generally enter society are no problem. That is what I understand controlling our borders is about.

yes we do but the fact is that Brexit WILL kill the NHS.

Not one prominent national medical, research, or health organisation sided with Brexit.
During the referendum, the Leave campaign made play of the impact of immigration on the NHS. And yet our public services are heavily reliant on EU migrants. There are 135,000 non-British European citizens working in the NHS and social care, about 10% of the total, at all levels of the service from consultants to carers. If a significant number leave because they have to, or are made to feel unwelcome, our services would collapse.

Medical research too is heavily reliant on European collaboration. To date, the UK has been the most successful country at winning EU funding for research and development in life sciences. After Brexit, the UK will have to pay to keep access to funding and key research organisations but have no influence in setting priorities in research and development. Yet another example of the UK actually losing control post Brexit

Now let us look at the weakening pound.
Half the products used in the NHS come from outside the UK and with the health service buying those items in sterling, it faces an extra £900m bill from suppliers, as they hike their prices to protect themselves against a weakening pound.

The NHS needs far more than money –sufficient numbers of highly-trained and motivated staff can’t just be plucked from trees – but without the money to recruit, train and retain staff for the 50,000 vacant posts (and rising), the NHS simply can’t cope safely with the demands placed on it.
A case was made that migration was heaping pressure on the health service. The position is more complex, though. Yes, the strain in some areas is undeniable. However, EU migrants tend to be of working age, use the NHS less and pay taxes to fund it.

In the decade the coalition and Conservatives will have been in power, and that Brexit will have come to pass, the NHS will have seen the fastest-ever contraction in its funding, whilst demand increases 4-6% a year.

I don't directly work for the NHS but do have a very close insight into it and the speed of decline that I am seeing right now would shock a lot of people on here. Just try and make sure you dont get ill in the next few years.

[flash gunner]

TM is in India today, and you know the subject that has been brought up by the Indians, yes it's immigration. They are saying if the UK wants a tariff free trade deal with us, and access to their 200m up and coming middle classes that we have to concede some ground with their talented young well educated middle class professionals, who can't come to the UK to study then stay on and work in what would be quite well paid roles.

I can see large swathes of Brexiteers having a hissy fit over the thought of more immigrants coming to the UK from outside the EU. One of the selling points of leaving the EU was that we can trade with the rest of the world, well I tell you this every country that is "emerging" such as India and China will want immigration to form part of any future trade deals.

My thoughts on immigration from outside of the EU is its unfair to have limits and restrictions on the Indians (for example) who would benefit the UK economy and the UK in general and have totally unrestricted unskilled immigration from within the EU that makes the poor poorer that is whats so unfair about the EU immigration and immigration from outside the EU

That's fair enough, but you cannot just say that immigration from the EU is only unskilled labour. I used to rent a spare room out in my old gaff up in Enfield when I got divorced a few years ago. Had a Polish lad stay, he was very well educated and worked in the city. To say immigration from the EU is largely unskilled labour is not true there are an awful lot of professional people in the UK from the EU.

With regards to India, trust me there are a lot of Brexiteers who unlike you won't care how skilled the Indians are. They want their country back in the truest form.

I think immigration from inside the EU is largley unskilled labour, thats not to say all are unskilled but i would say the majority. Yeah there are some people who would like a stop to all immigration but that just isnt acceptable.

Personally i think its unfair to have Asians, Australians and Africans jump through hoops to get here and work where as anyone from the EU can come and go as they please, often but not always, forcing the lower paid job to become even lower paid

[Herd]

The only way to curb immigration is to end all benefits or Tax credits or council housing for 10 years to anyone from abroad and to end the offer of citizenship after 5 years .
Add to this barring relatives of arranged marriages and you would go someway to ending the endless wave of economic benefit migrants to these shores !
The calais Jungle would have torn itself down if that was the case !

[OneBardGooner]

For anyone interested in politics - This is an excellent insight into Obama's first 100 days as President.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... andiplayer


It also reveals how useless Bush was and the mess he left the country in.

[A11M11]

Rob , I can't disagree that the NHS is dramatically underfunded. Of the major E.U countries I believe we come 12th or 13th in the percentage of GDP we spend on it. The prominent national medical, research, or health organisations are like most financial institutions nervous about the future and by nature they are conservative and would never step outside the status quo despite knowing and asking for more funding.
You say that half the products used come from outside the U.K This is true, the greatest number of generic drugs which are used because of price come from India and the far east mainly supplied by a company based in Isreal .
Of the research I know very little , so I bow to your superior knowledge but I cannot believe that because we will leave the E.U that there will be no collaboration and perhaps one of the benefits of leaving might be that there are more funds for research in both this and other underfunded areas.
I think if you asked the majority in detail about their immigration concerns you would find that hardly any are worried about foreign doctors , teachers and those of similar standing but do draw the line on those that just turn up with little or nothing to offer.

I should add that I also have no connection to the medical profession and I am just as concerned about it's welfare , I just have a different opinion.

[Allgunsblazin]

The two biggest factors in UK politics

1 NHS
2 Europe

We hear different takes on these issues and long before the Brexit vote the NHS has been a political football that neither party can agree on, the NHS was a brilliant idea back in the day, but it is just not sustainable in its present form.
Doctors/Surgeons/Consultants that hedge between the NHS and Private Practice earn phenomenal amounts of cash, then you hear how overworked and tired they are btw I have nothing against them making money!
Of course back in the day that would not have been the case.
The strain in the next 8 years along with state pensions will be so much so that we may have to rethink on how the NHS is funded and they better start now...

[GoonerMuzz]

Unfortunately much as we need the NHS and it has over many years provided a level of care often far exceeding the majority of other countries around the world it is grossly underfunded for the number of people it has to service, however this is a vicious circle, the more people immigrating to the country and also those being born here as well as though living longer are one of the major causes of the problems. I'd be interested to know exactly how much underfunding there is and how much it would increase with a net migration of 300,000 as this seems to be the current average, next year.

Lets be honest although the NHS couldn't survive without the number of foreign workers it also struggles because of the massive increase in people it has to deal with, net migration for the past 5 years is roughly 1.5M that is massive if you add to it the increasing social burden of births and old age.

I genuinely wonder what the ratio of incoming doctors and nurses is to other workers and if it balances out baring in mind that this works in arrears we don't recruit for the number of people coming in but for those already here.

Add to this the extra number of school places, teachers, police, firemen, paramedics etc etc just in the public sector that are required and i'm not sure the immigration in is balanced with the need to support those people.

Although it would be potentially massively unpopular i'd love to see someone commission a thorough investigation into the true benefit of the large migration inwards we've seen so we could get a true idea of the figures, good or bad.

It's also true that not all immigration is unskilled, as stated we've seen large increase in the NHS, Teaching and so forth but again i wonder what the ratio is, and if it truly works out.

A final point which has been touched on above i completely disagree with the different rules for migration within and without the EU, it is effectively racist, i have two colleagues at work, one who is married to a Brazilian man and one who is married to a Peruvian woman, both of whom have children and yet both spouses had to jump through hoops to gain entry to the UK that people from within the EU do not, hardly fair in my opinion.

[Gunner Rob]

Unfortunately much as we need the NHS and it has over many years provided a level of care often far exceeding the majority of other countries around the world it is grossly underfunded for the number of people it has to service, however this is a vicious circle, the more people immigrating to the country and also those being born here as well as though living longer are one of the major causes of the problems. I'd be interested to know exactly how much underfunding there is and how much it would increase with a net migration of 300,000 as this seems to be the current average, next year.

Lets be honest although the NHS couldn't survive without the number of foreign workers it also struggles because of the massive increase in people it has to deal with, net migration for the past 5 years is roughly 1.5M that is massive if you add to it the increasing social burden of births and old age.

I genuinely wonder what the ratio of incoming doctors and nurses is to other workers and if it balances out baring in mind that this works in arrears we don't recruit for the number of people coming in but for those already here.

Add to this the extra number of school places, teachers, police, firemen, paramedics etc etc just in the public sector that are required and i'm not sure the immigration in is balanced with the need to support those people.

Although it would be potentially massively unpopular i'd love to see someone commission a thorough investigation into the true benefit of the large migration inwards we've seen so we could get a true idea of the figures, good or bad.

It's also true that not all immigration is unskilled, as stated we've seen large increase in the NHS, Teaching and so forth but again i wonder what the ratio is, and if it truly works out.

A final point which has been touched on above i completely disagree with the different rules for migration within and without the EU, it is effectively racist, i have two colleagues at work, one who is married to a Brazilian man and one who is married to a Peruvian woman, both of whom have children and yet both spouses had to jump through hoops to gain entry to the UK that people from within the EU do not, hardly fair in my opinion.

typical brexiter response.
stop worrying about immigration.
the biggest threat BY FAR to the NHS is the huge increase in the elderly population.

immigrants on the whole are working age and do not use the NHS half as much as you are led to believe.
the people who use the NHS by far the most are the elderly, and because there are and will be far more of them they are a huge drain on resources.

[Allgunsblazin]

We are told that controls are in place, for example (non eu) no proof of residence in UK means no treatment...
Europe does have that so called blue card, which ensures that every person within the EU is entitled to treatment to whatever member country they are in...
The trouble is, our Popular NHS system is much easier to circumvent! have a tour of London and get a hip replacement thrown in lol....

[nut flush gooner]

Unfortunately much as we need the NHS and it has over many years provided a level of care often far exceeding the majority of other countries around the world it is grossly underfunded for the number of people it has to service, however this is a vicious circle, the more people immigrating to the country and also those being born here as well as though living longer are one of the major causes of the problems. I'd be interested to know exactly how much underfunding there is and how much it would increase with a net migration of 300,000 as this seems to be the current average, next year.

Lets be honest although the NHS couldn't survive without the number of foreign workers it also struggles because of the massive increase in people it has to deal with, net migration for the past 5 years is roughly 1.5M that is massive if you add to it the increasing social burden of births and old age.

I genuinely wonder what the ratio of incoming doctors and nurses is to other workers and if it balances out baring in mind that this works in arrears we don't recruit for the number of people coming in but for those already here.

Add to this the extra number of school places, teachers, police, firemen, paramedics etc etc just in the public sector that are required and i'm not sure the immigration in is balanced with the need to support those people.

Although it would be potentially massively unpopular i'd love to see someone commission a thorough investigation into the true benefit of the large migration inwards we've seen so we could get a true idea of the figures, good or bad.

It's also true that not all immigration is unskilled, as stated we've seen large increase in the NHS, Teaching and so forth but again i wonder what the ratio is, and if it truly works out.

A final point which has been touched on above i completely disagree with the different rules for migration within and without the EU, it is effectively racist, i have two colleagues at work, one who is married to a Brazilian man and one who is married to a Peruvian woman, both of whom have children and yet both spouses had to jump through hoops to gain entry to the UK that people from within the EU do not, hardly fair in my opinion.

typical brexiter response.
stop worrying about immigration.
the biggest threat BY FAR to the NHS is the huge increase in the elderly population.

immigrants on the whole are working age and do not use the NHS half as much as you are led to believe.
the people who use the NHS by far the most are the elderly, and because there are and will be far more of them they are a huge drain on resources.

Agree, ageing population are a much greater burden than immigrants on the NHS and welfare state. Our immigration policy outside the EU is so retarded we have to sent non EU nurses home by 2020! Why is that, well the government have a salary threshold of £35,000 for non EU immigrants to continue working in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -rules.htm

The other thing is with care homes, most of the care workers now originate from Eastern Europe. The Indigenous population doesn't seem to want to fill these low paid roles.

[nut flush gooner]

It gets worse. I want my toblerone back .

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/08/tobleron ... rexit.html

[gazzatt2]

Unfortunately much as we need the NHS and it has over many years provided a level of care often far exceeding the majority of other countries around the world it is grossly underfunded for the number of people it has to service, however this is a vicious circle, the more people immigrating to the country and also those being born here as well as though living longer are one of the major causes of the problems. I'd be interested to know exactly how much underfunding there is and how much it would increase with a net migration of 300,000 as this seems to be the current average, next year.

Lets be honest although the NHS couldn't survive without the number of foreign workers it also struggles because of the massive increase in people it has to deal with, net migration for the past 5 years is roughly 1.5M that is massive if you add to it the increasing social burden of births and old age.

I genuinely wonder what the ratio of incoming doctors and nurses is to other workers and if it balances out baring in mind that this works in arrears we don't recruit for the number of people coming in but for those already here.

Add to this the extra number of school places, teachers, police, firemen, paramedics etc etc just in the public sector that are required and i'm not sure the immigration in is balanced with the need to support those people.

Although it would be potentially massively unpopular i'd love to see someone commission a thorough investigation into the true benefit of the large migration inwards we've seen so we could get a true idea of the figures, good or bad.

It's also true that not all immigration is unskilled, as stated we've seen large increase in the NHS, Teaching and so forth but again i wonder what the ratio is, and if it truly works out.

A final point which has been touched on above i completely disagree with the different rules for migration within and without the EU, it is effectively racist, i have two colleagues at work, one who is married to a Brazilian man and one who is married to a Peruvian woman, both of whom have children and yet both spouses had to jump through hoops to gain entry to the UK that people from within the EU do not, hardly fair in my opinion.

typical brexiter response.
stop worrying about immigration.
the biggest threat BY FAR to the NHS is the huge increase in the elderly population.

immigrants on the whole are working age and do not use the NHS half as much as you are led to believe.
the people who use the NHS by far the most are the elderly, and because there are and will be far more of them they are a huge drain on resources.

Agree, ageing population are a much greater burden than immigrants on the NHS and welfare state. Our immigration policy outside the EU is so retarded we have to sent non EU nurses home by 2020! Why is that, well the government have a salary threshold of £35,000 for non EU immigrants to continue working in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -rules.htm

The other thing is with care homes, most of the care workers now originate from Eastern Europe. The Indigenous population doesn't seem to want to fill these low paid roles.

thats not true many were working in care homes at above minimum wage with the influx of low skilled eu workers there wages went down
same with the labourers that wanted to get jobs building the olympic park those jobs went to EU workers on minimum wage
in your ivory tower you won't know theres is a stigma attached to working on minimum wage

[nut flush gooner]

Unfortunately much as we need the NHS and it has over many years provided a level of care often far exceeding the majority of other countries around the world it is grossly underfunded for the number of people it has to service, however this is a vicious circle, the more people immigrating to the country and also those being born here as well as though living longer are one of the major causes of the problems. I'd be interested to know exactly how much underfunding there is and how much it would increase with a net migration of 300,000 as this seems to be the current average, next year.

Lets be honest although the NHS couldn't survive without the number of foreign workers it also struggles because of the massive increase in people it has to deal with, net migration for the past 5 years is roughly 1.5M that is massive if you add to it the increasing social burden of births and old age.

I genuinely wonder what the ratio of incoming doctors and nurses is to other workers and if it balances out baring in mind that this works in arrears we don't recruit for the number of people coming in but for those already here.

Add to this the extra number of school places, teachers, police, firemen, paramedics etc etc just in the public sector that are required and i'm not sure the immigration in is balanced with the need to support those people.

Although it would be potentially massively unpopular i'd love to see someone commission a thorough investigation into the true benefit of the large migration inwards we've seen so we could get a true idea of the figures, good or bad.

It's also true that not all immigration is unskilled, as stated we've seen large increase in the NHS, Teaching and so forth but again i wonder what the ratio is, and if it truly works out.

A final point which has been touched on above i completely disagree with the different rules for migration within and without the EU, it is effectively racist, i have two colleagues at work, one who is married to a Brazilian man and one who is married to a Peruvian woman, both of whom have children and yet both spouses had to jump through hoops to gain entry to the UK that people from within the EU do not, hardly fair in my opinion.

typical brexiter response.
stop worrying about immigration.
the biggest threat BY FAR to the NHS is the huge increase in the elderly population.

immigrants on the whole are working age and do not use the NHS half as much as you are led to believe.
the people who use the NHS by far the most are the elderly, and because there are and will be far more of them they are a huge drain on resources.

Agree, ageing population are a much greater burden than immigrants on the NHS and welfare state. Our immigration policy outside the EU is so retarded we have to sent non EU nurses home by 2020! Why is that, well the government have a salary threshold of £35,000 for non EU immigrants to continue working in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -rules.htm

The other thing is with care homes, most of the care workers now originate from Eastern Europe. The Indigenous population doesn't seem to want to fill these low paid roles.

thats not true many were working in care homes at above minimum wage with the influx of low skilled eu workers there wages went down
same with the labourers that wanted to get jobs building the olympic park those jobs went to EU workers on minimum wage
in your ivory tower you won't know theres is a stigma attached to working on minimum wage

I bow down to your superior knowledge on care homes. With regards to builders, I know quite a few people in the trades and lets just put it this way they don't live on the breadline. Immigrant builders are good for keeping prices competitive. British builders always try to overcharge,

[GoonerMuzz]

Have to agree with Garrat about Careworkers, my wife has worked in Dementia Care for 20 years and she worries constantly about it, the influx of foreign workers has not been a good thing either for workers due to the reduction in wages it has brought about or the for the people they're caring for.

This isn't about racism its about the ability of people to care for and understand the people they are caring for but also for the elderly to understand and communicate with those caring for them. When you are a vulnerable elderly person it doesn't help when you're suffering dementia or other limiting issues if the person providing your care does not speak good English, my wife finds it hard enough to communicate with some of her clients and she's English born, she also has to spend part of her time helping the foreign workers communicate and understand the needs of the people they are trying to care for.

The reason many people leave the care industry isn't just because of the poor pay, it's a physically and emotionally demanding job and when the pay keeps getting cut the best people leave, of course workers coming in from outside the UK will do the job if its available but quite often they don't stay in it for long.

On a personal note i was recently in hospital for a kidney stone removal, 6 out of the 9 staff who cared for me were foreign some EU some not but i'll tell you this its fucking tough making sure you're understood when not everyone speaks fluent English especially when you're coming round from a general anaesthetic.

Don't be fooled by people saying its good for the care industry and NHS it isn't, it is just necessary because successive governments and the NHS themselves have planned so poorly for the future and left us desperately short of the necessary skilled workers in the UK .

I'm not particularly bothered about what colour/ethnicity/gender/religion or birthplace my nurse/doctor/care assistant has but i am bloody concerned that i can understand them so i know what is happening when i'm extremely vulnerable. I'm only 40 and fully able bodied, now imagine you are in your 80's partially sighted/deaf/limited mobility or suffering from dementia and think how much worse it must be for them.