Arsenal FC, not PLC

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

IU4GN you raise some fair points...but no movement unless it is a movement of one has unanimity on any aspect of the goals it pursues...

Naturally, but at the same time you cant go completely the other way. Not to get all Mr Miyagi or anyfink but most successful revolutions will be those seeking a certain outcome, even if the path towards it isn’t so clear cut from the beginning. I’m just saying people need to be 100% clear about what it is that they, and the group as a whole, are seeking from this. Cos I’m not sure everyone’s on the same page yet.

And we will work our way through it because we all share the same main goal - what is best for Arsenal Football Club.

Of course, but as lovely as that sounds, the point is different people have different ideas about what is best for Arsenal.

THe difference in response to both comments is that we have already worked past the point of rejecting one another viewpoints ouright ahead of time as has been going on here in all directions for some time now. The fact that we now see ousrselves - based on the diverse list of people and views and personalities in this effort - as after the same thing is a huge shift in itself over a matter of moths really but in fact that occurred practically just in a week or so not even that long.

But, even allowing for the ever-so-slight exaggeration that everyone's fully on the same page already , that's happened with a lot of back & forth dialogue on here. Unless the protest is limited to people on here, I'm talking about amongst the 100s/1000s of Gooners it hopes to involve if/when it takes off. Just saying "we all want what's best for Arsenal" is a bit generic & airy-fairy. I believe Wenger genuinely wants what's best for Arsenal, but what he thinks & what I think that is are 2 different things.

[Gunnersaurus]

Why are they charging such high prices if they aren't going to invest it in the team?

Because they can, this is why I find this movement nothing more then a joke, it is driven by so called realists with their heads in the clouds and no sense of reality.

Get a grip, its embarrassing.

So we're supposed to just sit here while they increase prices, make us much worse off just to line their pockets and not say anything at all.

The only other way to make them notice would be not to go but understandably people still want to watch The Arsenal and aren't willing to give their season tickets up.

The only way they will ever listen is if the attendance drops, unfortunately your hands are tied if you still want to go, this is the nature of football, we attend, they run the club and play, that is the nature of the beast, to think you can force change is not the real world and as a realist you will know this.

You've not really thought this through have you?

There is no shame in caring, we all do but be realistic which is what you are supposed to pride yourself on, going is a choice, its optional, if that's not an option then get fucking real and take the rough with the smooth.

You haven't thought this through! Basically what you're saying is we should just lie down and get what we're given and if we don't like it then we should fuck off!

Terrible attitude to take.

No, I think you should stand up and wave a two tone scarf around, that has been proved to work well, oh hold on....

If you got any backbone about you and refuse to buy into it then you would take the moral highground and not renew, you won't though so have to accept that the club is a business and will do what businesses do.

We are not in Egypt, there will be no coup.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Unless I am reading his post wrong (and I might be cos it was a long post ) IU4GN seems to be saying the same thing as I have said before........fundementally this protest can only be deemed a success if wenger ends up leaving. That may well not be the aim of the group but being honest can anybody see wenger changing his mentality even if 50,000 home fans voice their displeasure at every home game ? For me the best case scenario from this would see wenger leave as manager, either cos he throws his dummy out of the pram again as people dare to question him or that the board suddenly awaken to the dis-satisfaction amongst the fans and start to lean on wenger to shake things up. In my opinion there is only one way that wenger can turn fans like me back on his side and that is if he brings in some quality players and dispenses with the players who are simply not good enough and do not have the right attitude (dont need to name them again do I ?) and whatever about wenger buying in some quality players I think we all know that the likes of diaby and denilson are not leaving anytime soon.

Slated by augie for a long post. A new low.

[QuartzGooner]

IU4GN

Thanks for feedback.

I think that we should stick with point one as the main uniting factor for fans


i.e. We want better players, especially as we pay a lot of money for tickets.

The stuff in point three about the PLC etc is more detailed, less eye catching, less emotive.

On this Forum we discuss it a lot, but I really think the average fan is now fed up of sub standard players, and wants better ones.

That could tie in to how to market the campaign...direct eye catching images of the contrast between the 2002 side and the current side.

If there is too much emphasis on the details of the PLC and and investments then it gets dull, complicated and above all -

It opens the doors for anyone for the club to wipe the floor with us in a discussion, to talk about "Future deals and world economy etc"..

But the simple fact is that no one from the club can rightly convince us or the media that the team is good enough, the league table and cup runs provide clear proof of that.

[M-50]

How many facebook fans does the campaign have?

[augie]

Unless I am reading his post wrong (and I might be cos it was a long post ) IU4GN seems to be saying the same thing as I have said before........fundementally this protest can only be deemed a success if wenger ends up leaving. That may well not be the aim of the group but being honest can anybody see wenger changing his mentality even if 50,000 home fans voice their displeasure at every home game ? For me the best case scenario from this would see wenger leave as manager, either cos he throws his dummy out of the pram again as people dare to question him or that the board suddenly awaken to the dis-satisfaction amongst the fans and start to lean on wenger to shake things up. In my opinion there is only one way that wenger can turn fans like me back on his side and that is if he brings in some quality players and dispenses with the players who are simply not good enough and do not have the right attitude (dont need to name them again do I ?) and whatever about wenger buying in some quality players I think we all know that the likes of diaby and denilson are not leaving anytime soon.

Slated by augie for a long post. A new low.

Hey I am a changed man - this aint the augie that joined the forum all those years ago as I am now a more mellowed version of the old me

Why is it when you say low my first thoughts are "not as low as DB10" ?

[USMartin]

The problem there Augie is that you would be suggesting then the movement would be a success even if nothing changed for the better as is very possible if there are nor serious changes in the club's financial policies, period.

Do you really think that if we don't re-visit our wage structure we will actually be able to add the kind of players we need to add to this team to make it better than it is now? And if we can't do that and continue to underpay(and undermotivate) the best players in the team how much longer will they stay to play for nothing but being nearly men when they can make more money and win more trophies elsewhere?

No if you think change for change's sake is a valid goal than get ready to watch us drop further back and out of the top four and straight into years and years in the Wilderness even as the club rakes in more and more money. If we piush for change for change's sake than the only real chance for change is mass declines in ticket sales, which aren't going to happen any time soon.

A managerial change may or not be required here, we don't not know with any certainty. What we do know is there is no guarantee anything that we want and need to change will change with that action alone, and that is a certainty - there is no guarantee of that so we cannot just make that our goal because itt in fact is not our goal.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Hey I am a changed man - this aint the augie that joined the forum all those years ago as I am now a more mellowed version of the old me

Why is it when you say low my first thoughts are "not as low as DB10" ?

True, you use paragraphs now & everything!

[M-50]

How many facebook fans does the campaign have?

Anyone know?

[USMartin]

Quartz to avoid challenging the Board by our own decision in advance on these issues - particularly if these are policies originating from the Board Room as they may or may not be - fatally undermines our efforts in advance and makes us half a movement at most.

While we should not seek to single out or attack anyone - either the Manager or The Board in advance of what transpires we cannot say 'we will only do this....or we will only follow the facts if they lead to this....or we will only question the questionable statements made by.... ' or we fundamentally weaken our position before we even take any sort of stand on it.

If we say this is all we are willing to address ahead of time we fatally compromise our efforts to address that much or little even here and now. Our goal is to give the powers that run the club, be it the from the Manager's Office or from the Board Room a chance to explain the policies in place and ideally to correct those we feel have failed or are failing.

If we say we are only going to question what the manager says in response or we are not going to challenge the Board if they dismiss us summarily, or defend their policies with less-than-credible justifcations, then we might as well just stop right now because this would just be a protest for protest's sake.

I don't know that this is certain or even likely but simply a serious movement's existance alone might achieve what we want achieved but only if that movement doesn't hamstring itself in advance, and is willing to address whatever it is we have to when we know that. And we will only that for sure after we begin.

[QuartzGooner]

USMartin

The campaign targets the club.

Both Wenger and the board get to see the message by default, but it is Wenger who is key, who decides what players to buy and whom to sell.

If your theory on the board holding back money is true, and this campaign frees up cash for players, then great.

But getting bogged down in financial minutiae will scupper the campaign.

- It is dull.
- It immediately hands the advantage to the club who know the accounts better than anyone else can hope to.
- It is not even proven that it is a problem, in fact many say the finances are strong.

But there is no question that the squad is weak.


If you want to target the board head on, then use your own petition to do so.

Just look at this Forum.

Threads about players attract a lot of posts from a lot of different people, with clear evidence before our faces every weekend.

Threads about the Board attract a lot of posts from just a few people, going round in circles with a lot of conjecture involved.

[USMartin]

USMartin

The campaign targets the club.

Both Wenger and the board get to see the message by default, but it is Wenger who is key, who decides what players to buy and whom to sell.

If your theory on the board holding back money is true, and this campaign frees up cash for players, then great.

But getting bogged down in financial minutiae will scupper the campaign.

- It is dull.
- It immediately hands the advantage to the club who know the accounts better than anyone else can hope to.
- It is not even proven that it is a problem, in fact many say the finances are strong.

But there is no question that the squad is weak.


If you want to target the board head on, then use your own petition to do so.

Just look at this Forum.

Threads about players attract a lot of posts from a lot of different people, with clear evidence before our faces every weekend.

Threads about the Board attract a lot of posts from just a few people, going round in circles with a lot of conjecture involved.

Quartz the bottom line is that how we should and where we should proceed depends on what response we get from the club not on some preconceived notion of anything.

If the response raises questions as to the Board's running of the club and the motives baeind that we have to pursue that or else we can only fail if we say in advance we aren't going there. We may not have to go there at all depending on what is said or done and why. But it would be foolish to unilaterally say no we will go there period, no matter what.

This isn't a show protest here where we we only want one result achieved only one way or we don't want any result at all. This is a serious effort to bring about positive changes within the club, not an effort to do that so long as we don't have to bother or upset certain people while we do it, because that is not a serious effort.

Our immediate goal is to present our position and see how that powers that be react to it - period. Then is when we decide how we react to their reaction(dependent on what that reaction is and on how satisfied we are by it), and only then if we seriously want to have a chance of real success.

[QuartzGooner]

I think you are over complicating things USMartin.

The campaign can be focused.

It is about making it known that fans are not prepared to watch Diaby, Denilson, Eboue etc.
That we are no longer competitive at the highest level, and the money that is spent can be better spent on better players without a slavish adherence to a youth policy, which is logical, and takes us a long way, but not all the way to titles.

A simple cry from the heart saying "Enough is enough."

From the fans, for the fans.

Not something that duplicates the AST or AISA campaigns.

[USMartin]

I think you are over complicating things USMartin.

The campaign can be focused.

It is about making it known that fans are not prepared to watch Diaby, Denilson, Eboue etc.
That we are no longer competitive at the highest level, and the money that is spent can be better spent on better players without a slavish adherence to a youth policy, which is logical, and takes us a long way, but not all the way to titles.

A simple cry from the heart saying "Enough is enough."

From the fans, for the fans.

Not something that duplicates the AST or AISA campaigns.

No its simple - the campiagn begins and moves forward and moves where it moves, and where it moves depends on the direction the powers that be lead it with response to it.

Movement for movement's sake is doomed to failure.

The purpose isn't to have few meetings and marches so you can knock off to the pub after. It's not to say we protested period. There is no point in protesting of achieving a real goal is not your intent, and there's no point in protesting if achieving the bare minimum is your intent, either. "Please, sir, may I have more?" is not a real world protest. We aren't doing this just to get our ya-ya's out.

All I am saying is we cannot say we will not do this or that in advance or we undermine our ability to pursue our goals and achieve success in attaining them before we start even, and you are well and truly smart enough to know that, Quartz

[tel]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but as soon as usmartin appears I generally stop reading......

Wouldnt a better idea be to organise a boycott of food and drink inside the ground first and then crank it up from there once the season ticket renewals and match day increases come out???