It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
Just out of interest could one of you give me some idea as to what "sovereignty" you want back? I've never seen it explained.
And can you tell me how the EU is undemocratic when UKIP has 1 MP and 22 MEPs. The UK has a head of state who is an accident of birth and a second chamber appointed by the government, the CofE, and more accidents of birth? Every decision maker in the EU is either directly or indirectly (Council of ministers) elected.
Genuine question. Never seen it explained, but then again I'm being condescending...
The unelected EU Commission can veto any proposal put forward by the elected MEPs should they decide, that seems pretty undemocratic to me Chippy.
It has happened at least once where a proposal to reform the EU commission put forward by a group of MEPs has been rejected by the same people whose power the proposals are set to reduce or change.
It's not really the undemocratic nature of the EU or the principle of parliamentary sovereignty that bothers me.
It's that the EU - naturally - looks out for the EU's interests. Other than the tiny minority of staunch Eurosceptics in the EP, expecting any of the EU institutions to want to reign in or check the EU's powers is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. The EU is a supra-national body who can largely define the scope of its own powers, and is naturally packed wth Europhiles so it's hardly surprising that people on both sides of the debate agree that there has been serious mission creep.
The fundamental issue for me really is the European Union expansion post-2000. An economic union with a handful of similar countries meant that it was easier for the EU to please everyone with decisions as the countries had similar goals, needs etc. Now the member state socio-economic demographic is so diverse that they are inevitably going to piss countries off with every major decision - because what's good for Germany, France etc isn't likely to be good for the much smaller and less competitive eastern economies.
Likewise freedom of movement is a wonderful thing in the right economic union and has done a lot of good in Europe - but it has also led to so many welfare tourists to the rich north and undoubtedly on the flip side a severe brain drain from the less competitive economies.
I also don't have much regard for Germany lecturing from on high as self-appointed head of the EU. Just as im sure just about every other country is sick of the UK's endless rhetoric and what they perceive to be throwing toys out of the pram. I don't blame the EU one bit for not allowing more substantial reforms - the reality is that we are 1 of 28 members and shouldn't be able to dictate fundamental changes without mass support. We just have to accept that we have negligible control over the destiny of the EU and this referendum is about whether or not the EU as is is worth being a part of still.
And thereby hangs the tale .The E.U is a power hungry control freak . The powers Germany and France along with the business houses of the U.K require growth and the best way to get that is to tie in customers to make sure that they buy the products they need from the places you want them to, and increasing the customer base is a sure way to achieve that.
. Every debate seems to become hijacked by immigration which plays into the hands of those that wish to silently force the changes they personally want. Politicians have been doing this for years .Put up a kite to capture headlines whilst something possibly unpopular creeps through under the radar. The E.U are past masters at giving something headlinable with their left hand whilst taking twice as much unnoticed with their right. This referendum is simple , it's not about cheap flights or lower roaming charges , neither is it about how many E.U nationals prop up the NHS. It's about self governing and having the right to vote out a government that we don't want . Something my parent's families and many others died for.
As for the wooly minded politicos arguing that we should remain to force change on it's policies from within , well good luck with that . We couldn't get any significant changes when there were only 6 members , so there is even less chance of them achieving it as our voting capacity diminishes .
Leave now and start this country up again.
GoonerMuzz wrote:The unelected EU Commission can veto any proposal put forward by the elected MEPs should they decide, that seems pretty undemocratic to me Chippy.
It has happened at least once where a proposal to reform the EU commission put forward by a group of MEPs has been rejected by the same people whose power the proposals are set to reduce or change.
Please supply evidence as I think you just made that up. The only people with vetoes are the Council of Ministers who are elected ministers of member states.
A11M11 wrote:And thereby hangs the tale .The E.U is a power hungry control freak . The powers Germany and France along with the business houses of the U.K require growth and the best way to get that is to tie in customers to make sure that they buy the products they need from the places you want them to, and increasing the customer base is a sure way to achieve that.
. Every debate seems to become hijacked by immigration which plays into the hands of those that wish to silently force the changes they personally want. Politicians have been doing this for years .Put up a kite to capture headlines whilst something possibly unpopular creeps through under the radar. The E.U are past masters at giving something headlinable with their left hand whilst taking twice as much unnoticed with their right. This referendum is simple , it's not about cheap flights or lower roaming charges , neither is it about how many E.U nationals prop up the NHS. It's about self governing and having the right to vote out a government that we don't want . Something my parent's families and many others died for.
As for the wooly minded politicos arguing that we should remain to force change on it's policies from within , well good luck with that . We couldn't get any significant changes when there were only 6 members , so there is even less chance of them achieving it as our voting capacity diminishes .
Leave now and start this country up again.
When you say business houses what exactly do you mean. are you referring to the square mile perhaps?
Then you talk about France and Germany using their power within the EU to "tie in" consumers to buy it's products. So we have to leave the EU for me to buy a Japanese car rather than a German one?
If you cast your memory before the second world war, the British Empire pretty much went about colonising much of the world that we now know as the commonwealth. And for the record thousands of soldiers from overseas countries gave their lives in the fight against fascism during WWII. Despite this much of the commonwealth still holds Britain with reverence. What a shame that we as British citizens have to take this attitude against both the Germans and the French.
[quote="nut flush gooner"]The issue for the UK is more EU expansion south/eastwards means another wave of mass uncontrolled immigration - not to mention weakening the EU economy overall. Why would people in the UK want Albania, Kosovo or Serbia to join the Eu - what would the UK gain from that?
While we would gain better life opportunities in our area... UK will gain less emigrants...
Weakening the EU economy!?!?
- Kosovo has 1,5 million citizens officially (1.2 most likely)
- Albania 2,5
- Serbia around 5
Mostly well educated (University degrees)
With open borders, there will be more controlled investments by EU, than there will be no need to leave!
The City doesn't benefit anywhere near as much as it could from the EU - freedom of goods in the manufacturing industry (heart of Germany's economy) is tremendous but freedom of services in the financial services industry is piss-poor and hamstrung by red tape in comparison.
The staunch opponent of Cameron's "reform" whereby the EU formally acknowledged that the Euro is not the only currency was France. This is because the more freedom of cross-border financial services, the more business London will take from Paris, so France will actively try and suppress the reduction of unnecessary regulation/restraint of trade factors.
northbank123 wrote:The City doesn't benefit anywhere near as much as it could from the EU - freedom of goods in the manufacturing industry (heart of Germany's economy) is tremendous but freedom of services in the financial services industry is piss-poor and hamstrung by red tape in comparison.
The staunch opponent of Cameron's "reform" whereby the EU formally acknowledged that the Euro is not the only currency was France. This is because the more freedom of cross-border financial services, the more business London will take from Paris, so France will actively try and suppress the reduction of unnecessary regulation/restraint of trade factors.
On what grounds do you make these assumptions? Do you work in the Financial services sector, or engage in your professional life with said Companies who chose firms from other countries rather than our own because we are deemed to be on the periphery of the EU.
I have travelled to Frankfurt on business and seen it's financial district, they compete with us at all levels for professional services but I am sorry the City smashes any other Financial Services industry (and other professional services) in Europe out of the park. We employ more people in FS and it generates billions of pounds for our economy, more than any other major EU economy.
A lot of the income for these services comes DIRECTLY from engaging with German and French companies. I have dealt with such firms in the past and they value our technical knowledge and expertise. Frankfurt competes on a European Level, London competes on a global level so given that we are seen as the gateway to Europe by many countries - why would be want to jeopardise this profound advantage.
I read many years ago that the tax take from the square mile was enough to cover the entire UK education budget. Certainly not small beans.
northbank123 wrote:The City doesn't benefit anywhere near as much as it could from the EU - freedom of goods in the manufacturing industry (heart of Germany's economy) is tremendous but freedom of services in the financial services industry is piss-poor and hamstrung by red tape in comparison.
The staunch opponent of Cameron's "reform" whereby the EU formally acknowledged that the Euro is not the only currency was France. This is because the more freedom of cross-border financial services, the more business London will take from Paris, so France will actively try and suppress the reduction of unnecessary regulation/restraint of trade factors.
On what grounds do you make these assumptions? Do you work in the Financial services sector, or engage in your professional life with said Companies who chose firms from other countries rather than our own because we are deemed to be on the periphery of the EU.
I have travelled to Frankfurt on business and seen it's financial district, they compete with us at all levels for professional services but I am sorry the City smashes any other Financial Services industry (and other professional services) in Europe out of the park. We employ more people in FS and it generates billions of pounds for our economy, more than any other major EU economy.
A lot of the income for these services comes DIRECTLY from engaging with German and French companies. I have dealt with such firms in the past and they value our technical knowledge and expertise. Frankfurt competes on a European Level, London competes on a global level so given that we are seen as the gateway to Europe by many countries - why would be want to jeopardise this profound advantage.
It would seem fairly obvious to me that as soon as we leave the EU, led by France and Germany, they would pass some regulation that effectively meant all major Euro transactions would have to take place in the Euro zone.
Nut Flush I didn't say that there was no cross-border provision of services. And I didn't say that London's financial services industry wasn't bigger than Germany and France.
In fact my whole point is that London is miles bigger and better - and that if financial services industry was opened up as much as the manufacturing industry then it would damage France and Germany economically as it would be even easier for London to compete in continental Europe.
, 20 years 
