An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[highburyJD]

Cesc and RVP are not from a decade ago

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Cesc and RVP are not from a decade ago

Cesc & RVC are more recent examples than Weah & Henry granted but Cesc broke through back in 2005, it was a big call initially for Wenger to attempt to build a team around him – although partially dictated by financial circumstance too at that time. Don't think it required exceptional belief beyond that first season or 2 cos Cesc was so obviously that good. RVC probably more so since he could have given up on him in the last 5 years with his injuries. Personally I think that was partially due to a reluctance to go out and spend on a replacement but in the interest of fairness I'll give Wenger the full benefit of the doubt there.

Over the last 5 or so years though how many times have we benefited from Wenger's belief in players compared to how many times it's been to our detriment? Enough to consider it a strong pro against all those cons? What about his belief that his players have been so good that we don't need to adapt our approach for the opposition? Or his belief in the players to "figure it out for themselves" when the shit's hitting the fan instead of him managing the situation.

[highburyJD]

I hope we are very soon going to see an even bigger quality return on Wenger's belief in his players
(not disputing we badly we need reinforcements)
but I think Wilshere can be another young World Class player we can build a team around
and Koscielny can be amongst the best centrebacks in the world

[N1Goon]

I hope we are very soon going to see an even bigger quality return on Wenger's belief in his players
(not disputing we badly we need reinforcements)
but I think Wilshere can be another young World Class player we can build a team around
and Koscielny can be amongst the best centrebacks in the world

Is Jack as talented as Cesc was at his age? I see a lot of crab-passing and uncertainty from Jack which is obviously a result of the massive injury break. I'm not sure, however, that Jack is good enough to build around.

[StuartL]

I hope we are very soon going to see an even bigger quality return on Wenger's belief in his players
(not disputing we badly we need reinforcements)
but I think Wilshere can be another young World Class player we can build a team around
and Koscielny can be amongst the best centrebacks in the world

JD I agree re Wilshere, his talent may well be unsurpassed in the English game in recent seasons, however, we didn't give Cesc the supporting cast his talent deserved, instead surrounded him with serial flops Almunia, Bendtner, Eboue, Djouro etc and hoped (expected ?) him to be able to overcome that handicap and still triumph...... he wasn't able to despite his very best efforts.

Given that we have had much better squad's than we currently do and we failed to invest in the one or two key positions that we were screaming out for to be upgraded, why on earth do you think that this time (mark v ?) will be any different.

As a prime example we wanted an experienced goalkeeper to mentor / challenge Schezney and by all accounts attepted to get Swarchzer but failed, so,a year later we still have the same crop of keepers (bar Almunia who has progressed to the dizzying heights of Watford) who were clearly deemed inadequate last season.

[DB10GOONER]

Discussin 'intangibles' makes for neither good analysis or online discussion
Shearer describes superior timing in winning a header as showing more 'desire'
its meaningless, tell an old lady you will give her a million if she wins a header
and eat her grandchildren if she doesn't, it won't improve her timing or technique

Jesus... that is one of the silliest posts I've ever read on here...

You listen to an interview with ANY ex-player where they talk about the trophies they won and every single one of them will at some stage mention how vital things like "desire" were to them winning it - but the great and wise SuperfanJD considers it not "good analysis or online discussion". You're the type of person (very like Wenger) that will probably wheel out Legohead's passing stats to back up an argument about how good he is, aren't you? Never mind that those stats are meaningless without the "intangible" (but VITAL) element of qualifying them. 30 completed 5 yard sideways passes on the halfway line has less effect on a game than 2 defence splitting passes that lead to goals. Oh, but Legohead completed so many of those little passes! Forget quantity – look at quality. It's what football is all about! 200 shots on goal, the only one that matters is the one that hits the net.

Later in this thread you then rant on about Wenger's "belief" as a strength. Belief of course can be a strength, when qualified by results, but it is also unquantifiable, and can then become a weakness, as ably demonstrated by the fact that Wenger's belief in the tippy tappy passing system and in certain players has tipped over the edge and is now just pig-headedness. Wenger's version of "belief" is a weakness and is one of the main reasons we are where we are, winning nothing year after year.

[bunch]

Finishing 4th once isnt a miracle (though Sperz and Shitty celebrated pretty hard)
doing it all the time is a massive achievement

I think it is an achievement that is impressive but the only ones getting joy from it are Stan "its always Movember" Kroenke and the board.

The season ticket is bumped up in price so we can watch damp squib games against Europe's second string teams, at 7.45 in a midweek evening which has meant that every season I miss at least one and sometimes two of the games. And I'm in the family section where you can't ticket exchange and there are absolutely no private sales takers for Olympiakos, Schalke, AZ Alkmaar, Montpellier and the other dross. This situation has got to be a BSM issue - these games should be priced for who the opposition is, and therefore the demand, and excluded from the season ticket.

These games suck in terms of atmosphere as well, from the Arsenal fans anyway. The oppo fans can be quite fun to watch sometimes though.

I had a twinge of pride in the way we seem to breeze through the group stages following the win against the mighty Montpellier. Especially when you compare to the dramas Citeh, Manyoo and the Chavs are having or had. But that was quickly quashed by the realisation that our team simply isn't good enough to make it past the QF stage. We might get a lucky draw for the round of 16 but we'll get done in the Quarters.

You can't even make the argument that CL gets us good players. The last few years have shown players understand the above and that playing for Arsenal means no chance of Euro silverware so they go elsewhere.

Champions League is a bloated competition that is all about money and being in it has distracted the current manager from winning the domestic trophies.

BTW I've read most of this thread and you've made some cogent contributions JD. I think you are wrong, and it seems every match we play go further to prove Wenger isn't the right manager for the job. For me it has always been a matter of motivation, and Arsene's failure to motivate the team when the going gets tough.

[supergeorgegraham]

Ok some positives bout Wenger. He makes an awful lot of money for the club and has made it a financial powerhouse. He can still see a good midfielder when he sees one (Ramsey not included)

His failings outway this by a Million miles. We pay over the top for crocks like Diaby and then lose our best players while still having one of the highest wages in the league.
Defensive inapt and this also applies to recent forward players. He is well overdue an exit.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Finishing 4th once isnt a miracle (though Sperz and Shitty celebrated pretty hard)
doing it all the time is a massive achievement

I think it is an achievement that is impressive but the only ones getting joy from it are Stan "its always Movember" Kroenke and the board.

Out of curiosity, in the last 5 years who would you say we've we finished above that makes it such an achievement?

Take the scum for example. One of the biggest complaints about the CL qualifying set-up is that it promotes something of a closed shop. The longer you're in it the more of an advantage you have to qualify for it again and the longer you're out of it vice versa. Five years ago we'd already been in it a decade or so compared to them never having got there.

Add to that, all things considered we've outspent them in that time. Supposedly £50m a season extra on wages at this point.

Add to that again we were already a superior team to them at that point. They certainly weren't pushing us all the way each season.

So despite having the advantage of already being in the CL, and despite outspending them, and despite having the "head-start" of simply having a better team to begin with they've actually closed the gap considerably in the last 5 years. And they're still pretty shite. And yet this is held up as an "achievement" by Wenger!? What's impressive about that?

Not having a dig by any means, I'm just genuinely curious as to whether people have looked past the headline to really analyse how much (if any) of an achievement it is. Cos I just don't see how the top 4 = "massive achievement"(admittedly not quite your own words) stands up to proper scrutiny in recent times. And yet it's the one go-to defence of Wenger (again, I'm aware you're not defending him yourself) in the absence of being able to put forward any proper support of his managerial qualities. Aside from style and belief, obviously. Thank fuck for them.

[DB10GOONER]

And we saw that "style" for all it was worth on Saturday... ineffective little passing moves back and forth across the pitch ten yards each side of the halfway line... the myth of "Arsenal's beautiful football" is fully dead. We don't play beautiful football anymore, we are boring as fuck to watch now...

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

And we saw that "style" for all it was worth on Saturday... ineffective little passing moves back and forth across the pitch ten yards each side of the halfway line... the myth of "Arsenal's beautiful football" is fully dead. We don't play beautiful football anymore, we are boring as fuck to watch now...

But the belief. The belief was there. Wasn't it? Tell me the bastard belief hasn't fucked off out the door too!

[DB10GOONER]

And we saw that "style" for all it was worth on Saturday... ineffective little passing moves back and forth across the pitch ten yards each side of the halfway line... the myth of "Arsenal's beautiful football" is fully dead. We don't play beautiful football anymore, we are boring as fuck to watch now...

But the belief. The belief was there. Wasn't it? Tell me the bastard belief hasn't fucked off out the door too!

Yes, the belief is there... the belief will always be there... Arsene knows...

[markyp]

And we saw that "style" for all it was worth on Saturday... ineffective little passing moves back and forth across the pitch ten yards each side of the halfway line... the myth of "Arsenal's beautiful football" is fully dead. We don't play beautiful football anymore, we are boring as fuck to watch now...

+1,we are quite possibly the worst team to watch,we play like we are in the italian leaugue keeping hold of the ball at a snails pace going bloody nowhere,i dont recognise us anymore