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Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:45 pm
by casgooner
At least Cameron had the balls to have a referendum unlike his Labour counterpart over the Lisbon treaty. this referendum should have been done then.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:49 pm
by casgooner
Chippy wrote:casgooner wrote:My random thoughts on the Brexit debate:-
Where to begin?
Queen is a nominal figurehead and doesn't make any decisions.
If you believe that you'll believe anything
We do elect MEPs but they don't get to vote on or pass any laws, they do as they are told and just rubber stamp them.
WTF? No law can be passed in the EU without going through the parliament. Where do you get this from?
If you think our Government is corrupt, look at the heads of the EU. They don't have their finances checked by anyone, they don't have to account for anyone when they bill their expenses claim.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/
A group of 34 peers meanwhile claimed a total of £130,000 despite never voting, and eight claimed £29,000 but neither spoke or voted.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/go ... rs-2014-15
The President of Europe wasn't elected, when will that position become fully active without anyone voting for the post holder?
He was elected by the parliament. In the same way the British PM is effectively elected by parliament
We can't do anything that will help our own citizens. Cameron wanted to reduce fuel tax for drivers in the Highlands,
and was told he couldn’t the tax has to be the same everywhere!
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rura ... reen-light
We wanted to not tax Tampons, yes Tampons, but we were told we couldn't as everywhere else in Europe taxed Tampons, so tax stays.
I'll give you that one
We can't have anything revised or planned unless 28 other countries agree it.
Not true. On most issues there is qualified majority voting, where big countries like the UK get slightly more than their fair share of votes. Only big issues like letting in a new country require unanimity. The UK has been on the winning side in 88% of votes in the Council of Ministers.
Countries which have very different needs to ours.
Europe is too big and bureaucratic and it will only get worse.
I'm voting leave!!!!
By all means vote leave, but at least do so for valid reasons or a purely emotional response, not because of a bunch of lies or half truths made up by the gutter press.
Great about the petrol, but it took a year of forelock tugging and hat doffing no doubt. As per expenses, tell me about the EU bosses now.
Still voting leave.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:56 pm
by Red Snapper
casgooner wrote:At least Cameron had the balls to have a referendum unlike his Labour counterpart over the Lisbon treaty. this referendum should have been done then.
Nail on head!
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:05 pm
by Chippy
OneBardGooner wrote:It looks like this could also be the end of Cameron - if we do leave - Lot's of Tory toadies coming out of the shadows to stick the boot in.
Oh what fun.
The tory party is going to tear itself apart no matter which way the vote goes. The referendum was the plaster to hold together the two wings, once it is out of the way it will be bedlam. Add on top the chances they might lose a raft of seats...
http://www.channel4.com/news/election-expenses-exposed
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:42 pm
by Chippy
Nos89 wrote:It's recently occurred to me that by leaving the EU we pass on all the powers to our own state, this government to write the bill of rights, human rights bill and set trade deals for our agricultural and industrial businesses.
Voting out won't change the government we currently have, unless an emergency election is called, and I can't see that happening. So, Cameron and Osbourne can set the agenda to their liking. So, anyone think things will be better overnight is very much mistaken.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:07 pm
by northbank123
Definitely bad news for the Tory party whatever happens.
That said is it possible to lose a general election to Jeremy Corbyn?
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 9:53 am
by A11M11
Shame that Corbyn isn't strong enough to set a real opposition because with a Brexit vote it is doubtful that if he could Cameron and Osbourne would survive. As was pointed out earlier we have the political situation here because of apathy, the numbers not voting virtually the same as those that do. We need a reform here just as much as Europe does but our chances of remaining and achieving that are considerably less as we will just have to roll over and accept the Brussells/ Strasbourg will.
To use the square mile's influence as a reason for staying is somewhat implausible if you can believe the Independent article :-
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 54851.html. This country needs investment and that requires money. We have assets ,we have land to farm , water to fish , technology to use , we need a fresh start .
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:04 am
by Chippy
northbank123 wrote:Definitely bad news for the Tory party whatever happens.
That said is it possible to lose a general election to Jeremy Corbyn?
With our totally undemocratic electoral system it is very possible.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:47 pm
by Red Snapper
Chippy wrote:northbank123 wrote:Definitely bad news for the Tory party whatever happens.
That said is it possible to lose a general election to Jeremy Corbyn?
With our totally undemocratic electoral system it is very possible.
What do you consider to be a democratic system? It certainly is an anomally that UKIP had a million more votes than the SDP yet one got one seat, the other got 50 but it is based on one man one vote and first past the post in every constituency. PR hasn't worked in any other European country that's tried it unless you want the chaos that is Italy so what is the alternative?
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:12 pm
by DB10GOONER
Have to say, there is something VERY punchable about Gove's face.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 4:53 pm
by Chippy
Red Snapper wrote:Chippy wrote:northbank123 wrote:Definitely bad news for the Tory party whatever happens.
That said is it possible to lose a general election to Jeremy Corbyn?
With our totally undemocratic electoral system it is very possible.
What do you consider to be a democratic system?
One that doesn't give parliamentary majority to a party that gets slightly more than 1/3 of the votes.
It certainly is an anomally that UKIP had a million more votes than the SDP yet one got one seat,
the other got 50 (
I assume you mean SNP)
but it is based on one man one vote and first past the post in every constituency. PR hasn't worked in any other European country that's tried it unless you want the chaos that is Italy so what is the alternative?
PR is used in one form or another in almost every country In Europe, including Scotland, Wales and both bits of Ireland, so not sure why think Italy is the only one.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 4:55 pm
by Chippy
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:07 pm
by northbank123
Chippy wrote:Red Snapper wrote:Chippy wrote:northbank123 wrote:Definitely bad news for the Tory party whatever happens.
That said is it possible to lose a general election to Jeremy Corbyn?
With our totally undemocratic electoral system it is very possible.
What do you consider to be a democratic system?
One that doesn't give parliamentary majority to a party that gets slightly more than 1/3 of the votes.
It certainly is an anomally that UKIP had a million more votes than the SDP yet one got one seat,
the other got 50 (
I assume you mean SNP)
but it is based on one man one vote and first past the post in every constituency. PR hasn't worked in any other European country that's tried it unless you want the chaos that is Italy so what is the alternative?
PR is used in one form or another in almost every country In Europe, including Scotland, Wales and both bits of Ireland, so not sure why think Italy is the only one.
Chippy you've got to look at the political history of various countries. Most European countries can function perfectly well with a coalition government because their political system is used to it and everybody accepts that an element of collaboration will be inevitable if they ever want power. Those countries are probably constitutionally better set up for coalition governments.
That isn't the case here and any coalition government just descends into in-fighting and difficult in getting things passed and governing effectively. That is certainly my perception of the Welsh-based PR system, which is a far more ineffective and petty political system than Westminster.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:10 pm
by nut flush gooner
Actually I think this is a master stroke by Cameron, get the referendum out the way 4 years before a General Election. The party may be divided but all you have to do is look at Labour who have enough problems of their own. In 4 years time all of this will be a distant memory.
What get's my back up is Cameron has a mandate from the British population and won a fair majority last year. Yet we have a group of approximately 50 conservative MP's who are frothing at the bit to have a vote of no confidence against Cameron's leadership.
If they force him out before his time, and Johnson become's PM, I will refuse to vote for them in the next election. Mr Johnson is showing his true colours in this campaign, I think he should join UKIP.
Re: EU referendum - What will you vote?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 7:05 pm
by northbank123
Fair point Nut Flush - if Remain wins then the fall-out of this referendum will die down long before the next election.
Interesting to see what the impact on Boris of this referendum is. He is an immensely popular bloke as served by a 13% swing (as I recall) between votes for the Conservatives in the previous Assembly elections and local council elections in London on the same day.
