THE BOARD - Kroenke, Usmanov, Finances, AGM etc.

[GranadaJoe]

Any hope AW had of leaving a positive legacy has disappeared.

I think he'll be remembered as the manager who cared more about himself than the famous club he was privileged to manage and who, when push came to shove, sided with the Board and not the fans (i.e. the people who will always be here when the money / attention - seeking owners have fucked off).

I think you're completely wrong here.

His legacy will definitely not be as you describe above. Instead, it'll be remembered for the attractive football, longevity, 2 doubles, the invincibles, some of our greatest ever players, our first European Cup Final, moving stadium, a rise in revenue and status, a level of consistency that kept us in the CL every season, etc.

That's not necessarily my thoughts, but in reality I believe history will be very kind to Wenger. And arguably, rightly so.

To suggest that all that will be forgotten in favour of "cared more about himself", "sided with the board", etc. is surely incorrect and is more your personal view than how the majority of people will remember him in years to come?

The frustrations along the way that we all know about will surely be lost with the passage of time. What remains is the records and the general narrative of success followed by years of belt tightening. If he ends with a few trophies (2 FA Cups is a good start) then that may cement his legacy even further as it neatly completes the story.

Also, don't underestimate how even future manager's success at Arsenal will be traced back to Wenger and the groundwork he put in place here.

I agree in part, though the things you list seem like ancient history to many of us. Did we really win the league? I seem to remember it, but my memory is going a bit.
The head will remember the trophies and if not we can always look them up on the internet, but the heart will feel ten barren years, never challenging for the title, and Mr.'Thirty years in football' swatting away any criticism as if we're all morons.

I loved the bloke, but now I dislike him. The trophies will always count and age mellows us but I don't think many fans will look back on his time at the club as one of unsullied joy and achievement.

[g88ner]

Any hope AW had of leaving a positive legacy has disappeared.

I think he'll be remembered as the manager who cared more about himself than the famous club he was privileged to manage and who, when push came to shove, sided with the Board and not the fans (i.e. the people who will always be here when the money / attention - seeking owners have fucked off).

I think you're completely wrong here.

His legacy will definitely not be as you describe above. Instead, it'll be remembered for the attractive football, longevity, 2 doubles, the invincibles, some of our greatest ever players, our first European Cup Final, moving stadium, a rise in revenue and status, a level of consistency that kept us in the CL every season, etc.

That's not necessarily my thoughts, but in reality I believe history will be very kind to Wenger. And arguably, rightly so.

To suggest that all that will be forgotten in favour of "cared more about himself", "sided with the board", etc. is surely incorrect and is more your personal view than how the majority of people will remember him in years to come?

The frustrations along the way that we all know about will surely be lost with the passage of time. What remains is the records and the general narrative of success followed by years of belt tightening. If he ends with a few trophies (2 FA Cups is a good start) then that may cement his legacy even further as it neatly completes the story.

Also, don't underestimate how even future manager's success at Arsenal will be traced back to Wenger and the groundwork he put in place here.

I agree in part, though the things you list seem like ancient history to many of us. Did we really win the league? I seem to remember it, but my memory is going a bit.
The head will remember the trophies and if not we can always look them up on the internet, but the heart will feel ten barren years, never challenging for the title, and Mr.'Thirty years in football' swatting away any criticism as if we're all morons.

I loved the bloke, but now I dislike him. The trophies will always count and age mellows us but I don't think many fans will look back on his time at the club as one of unsullied joy and achievement.

It does feel like ancient history

[augie]

g88ner the longevity to which you refer, will not be remembered in affectionate terms - for non Gooners and for the jcl tourist/corporate w.nkers, his longevity will be remembered in glowing terms, but for the vast majority of older Gooners will look on it in a negative way and remember the fact that he should have left years before. The reality is that his success was a lifetime ago (I'm not talking about 2 fa cups here) and those memories are fading year after year with lies, turgid shite and an inability to challenge for the top prizes now the order of the day

[Sean]

Nine years without a trophy is unacceptable when you consider the amount of money the club had and the extortionate ticket prices they charge. The fact that Wenger wants to pass teams to death with overpaid bang average players in a highly physical and pacey league doesn't help him.

One would have to ask themself if another manager would have won more since 2008 given the resources we have.

[g88ner]

g88ner the longevity to which you refer, will not be remembered in affectionate terms - for non Gooners and for the jcl tourist/corporate w.nkers, his longevity will be remembered in glowing terms, but for the vast majority of older Gooners will look on it in a negative way and remember the fact that he should have left years before. The reality is that his success was a lifetime ago (I'm not talking about 2 fa cups here) and those memories are fading year after year with lies, turgid shite and an inability to challenge for the top prizes now the order of the day

When I talk about legacy, I'm assuming we're referring to the next few generations of fans, so 20, 30 or even 50 years from now.

I genuinely believe future generations will look back on Wenger in much the same way as we look back on Herbert Chapman with rose tinted glasses.

The invincibles team will grow into Arsenal folklore - the finest moment in our history - and the manager who achieved it (along with 2 doubles and our first ever European Cup Final) will be looked upon in glowing terms, I'm sure of it.

I'm also convinced that the stadium move will be seen as Wenger's achievement and the romantic narrative of Wenger seeing us through financial troubles during the stadium move will also be seen favourably; especially if the story ends with a few trophies and signing star players (which is starting to happen i.e. 2 FA Cups, Ozil, Sanchez, etc).

I really think you're underestimating how history will judge Wenger by getting caught up in YOUR opinions of the man, which isn't really all that relevant in this discussion.

I'm also convinced that in the future Wenger will be seen as the father figure of modern Arsenal (and his longevity is part of that) and any success by subsequent managers will be traced back to Wenger and what he started.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with it but knowing how history has a tendency to sand off the rough edges and simplify things into neat romantic or evil narratives, I'm sure we all know which way the Wenger story will go.... (unless Baba has his way )

Look, I could be wrong and maybe Wenger will be looked upon negatively by future generations, but I'd be very very surprised.

[augie]

g88ner the longevity to which you refer, will not be remembered in affectionate terms - for non Gooners and for the jcl tourist/corporate w.nkers, his longevity will be remembered in glowing terms, but for the vast majority of older Gooners will look on it in a negative way and remember the fact that he should have left years before. The reality is that his success was a lifetime ago (I'm not talking about 2 fa cups here) and those memories are fading year after year with lies, turgid shite and an inability to challenge for the top prizes now the order of the day

When I talk about legacy, I'm assuming we're referring to the next few generations of fans, so 20, 30 or even 50 years from now.

I genuinely believe future generations will look back on Wenger in much the same way as we look back on Herbert Chapman with rose tinted glasses.

The invincibles team will grow into Arsenal folklore - the finest moment in our history - and the manager who achieved it (along with 2 doubles and our first ever European Cup Final) will be looked upon in glowing terms, I'm sure of it.

I'm also convinced that the stadium move will be seen as Wenger's achievement and the romantic narrative of Wenger seeing us through financial troubles during the stadium move will also be seen favourably; especially if the story ends with a few trophies and signing star players (which is starting to happen i.e. 2 FA Cups, Ozil, Sanchez, etc).

I really think you're underestimating how history will judge Wenger by getting caught up in YOUR opinions of the man, which isn't really all that relevant in this discussion.

I'm also convinced that in the future Wenger will be seen as the father figure of modern Arsenal (and his longevity is part of that) and any success by subsequent managers will be traced back to Wenger and what he started.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with it but knowing how history has a tendency to sand off the rough edges and simplify things into neat romantic or evil narratives, I'm sure we all know which way the Wenger story will go.... (unless Baba has his way )

Look, I could be wrong and maybe Wenger will be looked upon negatively by future generations, but I'd be very very surprised.

I absolutely agree with the highlighted part of your comments - the invincibles AND their manager will rightly go into folklore because what they achieved will (hopefully) never be done again. What I am also saying though, is that remembering that one glorious season in a career spanning almost 20 years, wont get him the type of god like status that you suggest it will.
Lets be honest here, if you take away that unbeaten season is his record any better than GG's ? He won ONE more league than George and a few more cups, but considering he has been manager for almost 3 times longer than George, is it really that big of an achievement ? George graham was one game (away to the chavs ) from also having an unbeaten season plus GG also won a European trophy having learned what was needed to do so after the benfica game - this is a lesson wenker has NEVER learned .

You refer to the Herbert chapman era and the way we look back on it, but I have to be honest and say that I don't view it that way - I know all about our history and the part that he played in it, but the reality is that he was (looooong ) before my time and to feel about it the way you suggest would require me to have actually lived through it. What he did was a wonderful achievement and no other Arsenal manager has come close to doing it since, but I will never feel a part of it in the same way I have in the teams of the last 40 or so years.

The stadium thing I also believe that you are overplaying a tad - in years to come when people look back on our record since the stadium move, there will be no footnote suggesting that our lack of trophies was down to a lack of funds, and nor will it say anywhere that le cock has had a shit load of money to spend in recent years but has failed to do so to the point that it has stopped the club competing at the very top level. When we look on our honours list it will only show actual honours and this is a point that many fans still continue to make - being an accountant/financial controller is not his job and as such he should only be judged as a manager of our club, and I will continue to argue that (despite the two recent fa cups) he has failed in his job over the last 7 or 8 seasons.
In a couple of years time our scumbag neighbours will be developing a new modern stadium and will probably be financially restricted during those first few years - do you think that when they get through those few years, levy and whatever manager they have will be written into the folklore of their shit club ? If le cock is lauded for seeing our club through those troubled times, then shouldn't levy be viewed the same way ? We all know that will not be the case cos at the end of the day, fans want trophies - stadiums are nice but I doubt there is a fan anywhere who would prefer a plush stadium over a league title or two.

I don't think that le cock will be viewed negatively in years to come and I don't think I said that - what I am saying is that I don't think that he will have the level of reverence and adulation that many of you think he will, and I feel that staying as long as he has, has taken a lot of shine off his career with us cos the last few years have been very poor

[g88ner]

I don't know if I'm overplaying the stadium move... maybe I am to be fair. Maybe you're right, and the financial reasons (excuses) for not winning anything will be forgotten too, and all that will be left is a big decade long gaping hole in our history.

Anyway, lets review this thread in 50 years

[Theoperator]

g88ner, I think you are right, us fans are notoriously fickle, and even Augie will don his rose tinted specs as we do a Leeds in 6 years time

Seriously, the history of trophies and fabled times are there, indelible on the stadium and more importantly in our memorys- remember where you were in 89 and all of that, the crap memories will fade, that's human nature- Ive sort of forgotten a lot of the total shit we served up in the late 70s, preferring to remember only that we won the double then the FA cup the umm well umm nearly next season then umm umm the league almost the season after

What I think we all are agreed on here is that Wenger was a total twat not to go after the invincibles, he has put personal gread and gain over his AFC immortality . Poor judgement, and a sour taste in lifelong gooners memorys for all but the deluded selfie stickers.

[DB10GOONER]

Agree 100% with g88ner. History (and the media in particular) will be very kind to Wenger.

Look at how most of us look back on the George Graham era. We see the league titles, the cup double, the ECWC and Anfield 89 with rose tinted spectacles.

We very seldom associate that era with the appallingly negative football we often played (apart from 91 when we were exceptional ). We don't seem to associate that time with GG turning that 91 team into a boring mid table cup team with no direction within 2 years; or with a manager that stole from the club (let's call it what it was, yeah they were all at it, but let's call it for what it was).

One way to look at it would be that GG was a crook and a thief that then went to the scum. We should despise him for those things surely? But I still love the man!

[augie]

Agree 100% with g88ner. History (and the media in particular) will be very kind to Wenger.

Look at how most of us look back on the George Graham era. We see the league titles, the cup double, the ECWC and Anfield 89 with rose tinted spectacles.

We very seldom associate that era with the appallingly negative football we often played (apart from 91 when we were exceptional ). We don't seem to associate that time with GG turning that 91 team into a boring mid table cup team with no direction within 2 years; or with a manager that stole from the club (let's call it what it was, yeah they were all at it, but let's call it for what it was).

One way to look at it would be that GG was a crook and a thief that then went to the scum. We should despise him for those things surely? But I still love the man!

A couple of quick points -

1. GG was not allowed to linger on for many years past his prime - he was (in my opinion) ruthlessly axed despite the fact that in the previous 3 years he has won 1 league, an fa and league cup double and a european cup winners cup. Contrast that to le cock who went nine fcuking years beyond his prime and during that time he has managed to seriously piss off a large percentage of Gooners

2. Ask a cross section of Gooners from the GG era, and you will find many of them will refer back to the "bung scandal" - that one incident has cast a shadow over his achievements with us and it shows how easy those glories can be overlooked by events in the latter part of the reign.

As a devoted GG disciple, it does piss me off slightly whenI see/hear fellow Gooners refer to the poor football we played under him - dont get me wrong cos I agree we played dire football at the end, but this was a club that has been brought up on a steady diet of turgid stuff (boring boring Arsenal anyone ? ). I think we would all be quick to acknowledge that the great football that we played early in le cock's reign has helped put GG's football in a bad light, but at the same time I am not a jcl and am aware of our history and would readily take success with bad football ahead of failure with flowing football

[g88ner]

GG was not allowed to linger on for many years past his prime - he was (in my opinion) ruthlessly axed despite the fact that in the previous 3 years he has won 1 league, an fa and league cup double and a european cup winners cup. Contrast that to le cock who went nine fcuking years beyond his prime and during that time he has managed to seriously piss off a large percentage of Gooners

In fairness, Graham wasn't sacked for footballing reasons so we'll never know how long Graham would have been allowed to linger on if he hadn't taken a bung.

It would have been interesting if Graham was still around when Dein wanted Wenger; it's one thing to sack Rioch but would we have sacked Graham?

[Theoperator]

Augie in GG defence shock

Actually Augie, I do think you are wrong for a change with GG- most Gooners of that era would not taint him with the bungs- possibly at the time but even then most saw what a huge achievement and improvement there was under his tenure- honestly the memories of 71 and a cameo FA cup were fast going, ( and we have to win the league every 10 years on average to be called a success ) Most realise all sorts were going on money wise in the whole game, still do (allegedly )but most were more canny about it.

Now I think most are like you... well almost- a huge respect and thanks to him. I do actually wonder if AW would have been persuaded to come if the GG era hasnt happened and our last success was the 70s. (Thus we do really have reason to dislike GG a lot )

[augie]

GG was not allowed to linger on for many years past his prime - he was (in my opinion) ruthlessly axed despite the fact that in the previous 3 years he has won 1 league, an fa and league cup double and a european cup winners cup. Contrast that to le cock who went nine fcuking years beyond his prime and during that time he has managed to seriously piss off a large percentage of Gooners

In fairness, Graham wasn't sacked for footballing reasons so we'll never know how long Graham would have been allowed to linger on if he hadn't taken a bung.

It would have been interesting if Graham was still around when Dein wanted Wenger; it's one thing to sack Rioch but would we have sacked Graham?

I have already accepted that we were playing dire football at the time GG was sacked, but I do wonder if the bung thing had of happened in the middle of the '91 season (when we played outstanding football AND won the league) would he have been sacked. I have always felt that the bung issue was only an excuse to get rid of the man

[augie]

Augie in GG defence shock

Actually Augie, I do think you are wrong for a change with GG- most Gooners of that era would not taint him with the bungs- possibly at the time but even then most saw what a huge achievement and improvement there was under his tenure- honestly the memories of 71 and a cameo FA cup were fast going, ( and we have to win the league every 10 years on average to be called a success ) Most realise all sorts were going on money wise in the whole game, still do (allegedly )but most were more canny about it.

Now I think most are like you... well almost- a huge respect and thanks to him. I do actually wonder if AW would have been persuaded to come if the GG era hasnt happened and our last success was the 70s. (Thus we do really have reason to dislike GG a lot )

I totally agree that MOST Gooners from that era would not taint him, but I stand by my previous assertion that there will still be Gooners who will hold that bung thing against him
Even if wenker could have been persuaded to become our manager, he would not have enjoyed anywhere near the amount of success he has had, without GG's defence to build on

[Theoperator]

Fully agree, but airbrush GG out and you wouldnt have the defense of GGs time nor AW- we could easily have done a Portsmouth