Wenger Myths debunked: the great developer of Youth

[Pirestzel]

Would Cashley Cole not be one that he bought through "the ranks"

[MutleyGooner]

Would Cashley Cole not be one that he bought through "the ranks"

I think Ca$hley more likely came in the backdoor

[Number 5]

Wenger developing Cesc is total b.s and you know it.
Wenger did not develop Cesc. La Masia did. They also developed Pique, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

As a great example as to why Wenger clearly did not develop Cesc, look to Pique. He came to ManYoo as a young kid. He was rather average when he did play for them and didn't do much. However, the class was always in him, you can see he was quality. He finally went to Zaragoza on loan and started coming into his own, and then has gone on to become one of the best centre-backs in Europe. Did Fergie develp him then?? Since he was brought to ManYoo as a kiddie? NO.

Barca did.

Don't take my word for it, ask Wenger: Wenger says that if a kid has not been technically developed by the age of 14 then it is too late for him. Words spoken from the mouth of Le Twat himself.

By the time Cesc came to Arsenal he was already 15 wasn't he?

Barca developed Cesc and gave him his footbal education.
Cesc was always going to make it, just as Pique was always going to make it.

Wenger just gave Cesc his chance in the first team. That's it.

I really don't get your arguement bud.

Seems to me you are saying footballers develop in their formative years and then once they hit the first team they stop dead.

That's not right. Footballers, the good ones, should be continually developing.

Being technically gifted and having that developed is only one thing of many that makes up a footballers total package. Plenty of supremely gifted people have pissed away their career through not having the rest of the pieces in place.

Look at Gazza, he had the fucking lot. But what a fucking shit career he had compared to what he should have had.

Wenger giving Cesc his chance in the first team is no-where near as related to the kind of player he has become as you seem to be implying.

[Babatunde]

In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?

What would you say of Van Persie? He was what 21 when we got him and rough as fuck round the edges.

I'm on record here as probably his biggest fan. I don't rate any striker in world football better. He is equal to them all.

Does that count? His improvement over the years has been massive and Wenger has to have some credit for that, no?

Come on Number 5 mate. It's clear that Van Persie is a Feyenoord product. He was immensely talented already when he joined us but was sold so cheap because Feyenoord were fed up of his injuries.

I really, really like Robin Van Persie and I think he's superb. Really rate him.

However I don't agree with you that he is up there with any striker, no chance.

David Villa, Sam Eto'o, Didier Drogba, Aguero and Rooney are all better players for me (when you especially factor in consistency and performances over a whole season).

Top player though. And a Feyenoord product.

[Babatunde]

tonysaunders wrote: What are the rules for this so I don't get shot down? Developed from scratch or not?

Surely Szczęsny was developed by Wenger?

TonySaunders I make you right. Chesney was developed by Wenger true.

And there are still a few problems with this

1. Sczesny is still a nobody in global football terms. He has won nothing, he has proved nothing. A few good games for half a season does not a keeper make. I think many of you are quick to forget the amount of spectacular cock-ups he has made. Good keeper and promising yes....but I can't forget those two major mistakes on the big occasion (Carling cup final).

2. If Wenger has developed this kid and he's excellent, then the question needs to be asked: why is it that all Brentford fans have known for over two years that Scezny is a way superior keeper to Almunia, and AW did not?? This strikes me as bizarre for a man who puts his faith in youth apparently. Brentford fans (a League 1 club are they?) have for a couple of years, been perplexed as to how a twat like Almunia can continue to cost Arsenal so big-time, whilst a rookie like Chesney who is far superior is not given any chances.
In fact, even when Almunia was finally jetissoned, it was the hapless Flapianski that was selected. It took 2 injuries to rubbish, older keepers for Wenger to give Chesney a chance. How does that tally up with being a great developer of youth??

Chesney is just promising and nothing more. He's still hit and miss for me. Problem is, as with the transfer window, Arsenal fans have been fed excrement for so long that the first half-decent keeper that came along was always going to be hailed as the next Lashin!!!

Whoa there. Hold your horses! See, this is why I wanted the rules explained to me before hand, because it seems you've already made your mind up about this, so it doesn't matter what anyone says in response. You asked for, and I quote, a "decent young player" that AW has developed in the last seven years. I think WS13 should be counted in there. I didn't realise I then had to meet other criteria!

P.S. Never did I suggest that WS was anything other than a "decent young player" and it cannot de denied that he is that.

So, if you wouldn't mind - what exactly is the proposition you're putting to people on here? I'll see if I can put forward any decent suggestions for you in response.

Ok Tony hear me out brah.

Scezny doesn't count for an obvious reason: he has not proved himself to be a quality player.

The criteria is simple:

1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.

Now. When I think Youth and Wenger then I think:

- Ashley Cole (even though AW almost sold him to Palace and then didn't once he found out about Sylvinho)

- Wilshere

- At an absolute push then I would give him Kolo Toure.

So that's three players in almost SIXTEEN years.

David Moyes has a better record than that with less resources.
Ferguson clearly has a much better record etc...

Now. Unless people wanna include the likes of Bentley, Jerome Thomas, Ryan Garry and Upson (in any case he was from Luton but I digress)....

I think Wenger's record is pony.

I realise young players are massively hit and miss and Fergie etc have had lots of duds, but Wenger's record with young players HE has developed is no better than any random league manager.

This is a convenient media myth that needs to be exposed for what it is...

[kiwomya]

What are the rules for this so I don't get shot down? Developed from scratch or not?

Surely Szczęsny was developed by Wenger?

I don't think it should be from scratch..... Otherwise people could deny that Wenger developed Cesc which would be wrong.

I think I remembered reading once that Chelsea would judge their youth policy a success by getting one player into the first team in 4 years...... Still not sure I understand why any of the top clubs still have academies though given how few of their own "kids" make it through.

Wenger developing Cesc is total b.s and you know it.
Wenger did not develop Cesc. La Masia did. They also developed Pique, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

As a great example as to why Wenger clearly did not develop Cesc, look to Pique. He came to ManYoo as a young kid. He was rather average when he did play for them and didn't do much. However, the class was always in him, you can see he was quality. He finally went to Zaragoza on loan and started coming into his own, and then has gone on to become one of the best centre-backs in Europe. Did Fergie develp him then?? Since he was brought to ManYoo as a kiddie? NO.

Barca did.

Don't take my word for it, ask Wenger: Wenger says that if a kid has not been technically developed by the age of 14 then it is too late for him. Words spoken from the mouth of Le Twat himself.

By the time Cesc came to Arsenal he was already 15 wasn't he?

Barca developed Cesc and gave him his footbal education.
Cesc was always going to make it, just as Pique was always going to make it.

Wenger just gave Cesc his chance in the first team. That's it.

Did you edit your second post on the first page? Thought you said earlier that Wenger should be credited with Fabregas.

[Number 5]

In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?

What would you say of Van Persie? He was what 21 when we got him and rough as fuck round the edges.

I'm on record here as probably his biggest fan. I don't rate any striker in world football better. He is equal to them all.

Does that count? His improvement over the years has been massive and Wenger has to have some credit for that, no?

Come on Number 5 mate. It's clear that Van Persie is a Feyenoord product. He was immensely talented already when he joined us but was sold so cheap because Feyenoord were fed up of his injuries.

I really, really like Robin Van Persie and I think he's superb. Really rate him.

However I don't agree with you that he is up there with any striker, no chance.

David Villa, Sam Eto'o, Didier Drogba, Aguero and Rooney are all better players for me (when you especially factor in consistency and performances over a whole season).

Top player though. And a Feyenoord product.

Fair enough if that's the criteria you are using. My second post in this thread says a bit more about what I think there.

But after you're reply there I think Quartz make the most reasonable reply in saying Wengers legacy is more about fast tracking players, late teens early twenties, into the first team who would have had to wait years more for a chance where the were.

But then that takes us down a tangent linked to the stadium move which would open up another can of worms.

So youth messiah, no.

Man who gave massive chances to unproven but talented players, yes.

[T.S]

Ok Tony hear me out brah.

Scezny doesn't count for an obvious reason: he has not proved himself to be a quality player.

The criteria is simple:

1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.

Now. When I think Youth and Wenger then I think:

- Ashley Cole (even though AW almost sold him to Palace and then didn't once he found out about Sylvinho)

- Wilshere

- At an absolute push then I would give him Kolo Toure.

So that's three players in almost SIXTEEN years.

David Moyes has a better record than that with less resources.
Ferguson clearly has a much better record etc...

Now. Unless people wanna include the likes of Bentley, Jerome Thomas, Ryan Garry and Upson (in any case he was from Luton but I digress)....

I think Wenger's record is pony.

I realise young players are massively hit and miss and Fergie etc have had lots of duds, but Wenger's record with young players HE has developed is no better than any random league manager.

This is a convenient media myth that needs to be exposed for what it is...

Y'know, I really wasn't sure about you. I think your idea that Wenger is at fault for everything wrong with the universe is a bit much. But, you used 'brah'. I like that. So you're alright with me!

Anyhoo, I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure exactly what your point is. If Wenger has a reputation in the media of developing youngsters, whether it's accurate or not, surely you should be more annoyed with the media than with Wenger. I can't recall him bigging himself up about developing youngsters from scratch (although I could be wrong).

Wenger is not perfect and, even in the 'glory years' I didn't think he was a very good tactitian. However, I'm starting to come round to the view that there must be something going on upstairs that we don't know about. There must be. Wenger is/was a very good manager who has done things with us that no one else has. I just don't understand how you, overnight, become a bad manager. There simply must be more to this than meets the eye. What that is, I don't know and I'm not sure we'll ever know.

[brazilianGOONER]

i think we should limit babatunde to 5 posts and one new thread per day maximum

either that or start posting some titties mate

[Babatunde]

In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?

What would you say of Van Persie? He was what 21 when we got him and rough as fuck round the edges.

I'm on record here as probably his biggest fan. I don't rate any striker in world football better. He is equal to them all.

Does that count? His improvement over the years has been massive and Wenger has to have some credit for that, no?

Come on Number 5 mate. It's clear that Van Persie is a Feyenoord product. He was immensely talented already when he joined us but was sold so cheap because Feyenoord were fed up of his injuries.

I really, really like Robin Van Persie and I think he's superb. Really rate him.

However I don't agree with you that he is up there with any striker, no chance.

David Villa, Sam Eto'o, Didier Drogba, Aguero and Rooney are all better players for me (when you especially factor in consistency and performances over a whole season).

Top player though. And a Feyenoord product.

Fair enough if that's the criteria you are using. My second post in this thread says a bit more about what I think there.

But after you're reply there I think Quartz make the most reasonable reply in saying Wengers legacy is more about fast tracking players, late teens early twenties, into the first team who would have had to wait years more for a chance where the were.

But then that takes us down a tangent linked to the stadium move which would open up another can of worms.

So youth messiah, no.

Man who gave massive chances to unproven but talented players, yes.

Well said agree with all of that.

[Babatunde]

Ok Tony hear me out brah.

Scezny doesn't count for an obvious reason: he has not proved himself to be a quality player.

The criteria is simple:

1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.

Now. When I think Youth and Wenger then I think:

- Ashley Cole (even though AW almost sold him to Palace and then didn't once he found out about Sylvinho)

- Wilshere

- At an absolute push then I would give him Kolo Toure.

So that's three players in almost SIXTEEN years.

David Moyes has a better record than that with less resources.
Ferguson clearly has a much better record etc...

Now. Unless people wanna include the likes of Bentley, Jerome Thomas, Ryan Garry and Upson (in any case he was from Luton but I digress)....

I think Wenger's record is pony.

I realise young players are massively hit and miss and Fergie etc have had lots of duds, but Wenger's record with young players HE has developed is no better than any random league manager.

This is a convenient media myth that needs to be exposed for what it is...

Y'know, I really wasn't sure about you. I think your idea that Wenger is at fault for everything wrong with the universe is a bit much. But, you used 'brah'. I like that. So you're alright with me!

Anyhoo, I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure exactly what your point is. If Wenger has a reputation in the media of developing youngsters, whether it's accurate or not, surely you should be more annoyed with the media than with Wenger. I can't recall him bigging himself up about developing youngsters from scratch (although I could be wrong).

Wenger is not perfect and, even in the 'glory years' I didn't think he was a very good tactitian. However, I'm starting to come round to the view that there must be something going on upstairs that we don't know about. There must be. Wenger is/was a very good manager who has done things with us that no one else has. I just don't understand how you, overnight, become a bad manager. There simply must be more to this than meets the eye. What that is, I don't know and I'm not sure we'll ever know.

I see where you're coming from and I getcha. But. It still doesn't explain the Almunia situation. The arrogance. The inverse racism and preferential treatment towards shit French players, the overpaying of rubbish etc....
That can't be down to the board, that is down to his own senility.

I actually think he has lost the plot. He is old and ridiculously arrogant.

BUT. I am aware that is also too simplistic an argument. There is defo some brinksmanship going on there we dunno about. That still doesn't excuse ANY manager from losing 8-2 and playing Almunia so long...

[mikeyb772001]

Bapatunde is a great poster!

he is only saying what i have been ranting about the last 2 years. I agree with every fucking word he has said. Just a shame you wasnt around when the akb mongs sing wengers name when were 2.0 down to liverpool!

I do however think i have found someone as angry with wenger as i am.

This is very rare.

[armchair]

look can everybody stop going over and over every minute detail to emphasise your points

Lets just put it to bed by saying Arsene Wenger is a fucking bluffer and he has dragged this club down to new depths I never ever thought I'd witness.

Arsenal is now a shadow of its former self and its down to Arsene Wenger with his lies, aloofness, arrogance, stubbornness, ineptitude, eccentricity, penny pinching and fucking stupidity.

BTW, I agree Babatunde puts into words far more succinctly and with clarity exactly what I've been thinking for years.

[SWLGooner]

I do however think i have found someone as angry as i am.

This is very rare.

There can only be one other person in the world who fits this description, and what are the chances they both post on the same fucking football forum!

[OneBardGooner]

I was having a chat with my mate (ok I was talking to myself in the mirror)...
And we were discussing what an inept manager Wenger has been for seven years and mentioning how the media have these antiquated Wengerspeak myths that are, complete bollocks.

One of my pet hates is the notion that Arsene Wenger is this great developer of Youth. I'll keep this short: that is complete bollocks. He isn't.

I believe it is telling that when discussing Wenger success stories with young players over the recent past, AKBs often immediately tend to point towards Henry and Vieira, who were signed in a different century and were known players.

In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?

I would go as far as to say that in his whole Arsenal tenure, in terms of young players he can take credit for developing and bringing through we can point to: Ashley Cole (left Arsenal for money and gave up on Wenger), and Kolo Toure because he needed development. Please correct me if I am forgetting anybody else but these are the only names I can think of? Most recently Jack Wilshere has emerged and is looking excellent - but that is three players in approaching sixteen years. That's incredibly poor for a man whose reputation is apparently based on givign youth a chance.

More alarming is if you look at recent evidence. Young players are deserting Wenger in droves because they complain of not being given a chance or, become sick of playing under an unambitious manager who stunts their careers. Bendtner is a young player who left because he cannot get a game ahead of some much older, far more useless French crap (Chamak. And yes he is French). Havard Nordveit and Rui Fonte all trumpeted and both moved on. Clichy was a monumental failure. Lansbury should be given a go but since he doesn't speak French will never get the chances Diaby does.

Remember, Ash Cole was almost flogged to Palace until Wenger discovered his passport was dodgy. I am not trying to urinate all over Wenger's legacy, just stating facts.

The players he is often credited with 'developing' are also highly dubious and in some instances, laughable. Thierry Henry for instance? Who knew France's top goalscorer in the year they won the World Cup! Henry was a great player off form and Wenger helped him rediscover it. Kudos for that but he never developed him. Anelka was developed at PSG, everyone knew what a top talent this kid was as he was already ripping it up as a 16 year old in France. Patrick Vieira was snared from Cannes by AC Milan but because of their strict foreigner rules, Wenger was able to snatch him. Again, he couldn't have developed him if Milan had already spotted how good the player was.

I honestly think this reputation Wenger has of bringing through youth has to be re-evaluated against the Facts. Look at Sczesny: Almunia played 4 years in goal and it took a Flappy injury for him to finally get a chance. It happened by accident. Meanwhile look at the time and chances afforded the likes of Shitachi, Cygan, Silvestre and Chamak (see a common theme there? All French!)

Bit long sorry but...Thoughts?

You really are a KNOBBER aren't you.