The Rooney Rule

[Cockerill's chin]

I agree that many clubs normally have a manager in mind when they are looking for replacements. Forcing them to go through the interview process might be more productive for the game than the manager merry go round we have currently.

I have heard that this process has had a positive impact across the Atlantic with employers being blown away by ideas/enthusiasm from managers who would not otherwise have been given an opportunity to state their case.

Seems a good idea to me.

[arseofacrow]

The rule has one drawback - it will benefit the likes of Phil Brown

He's in a minority of 1 who thinks he's a top manager.

[skizz_b]

The rule has one drawback - it will benefit the likes of Phil Brown

He's in a minority of 1 who thinks he's a top manager.

Plus he's orange and will call himself the oompa loompa minority. Bastard.

[safcftm]

1. Perhaps not many black managers don't bother going into management for the same reason that I refuse to keep paying for flowers to be delivered to Helena Christensen's door: POINTLESS excercise.

2. This is not positive discrimination. Affirmative action is. No advantage is accrued from the actual outcome. What it does do, is to generate the opportunity for people who would otherwise potentially not even come under consideration. I repeat: it doesn't force anyone to give anyone a job, unlike the US.

3. This rule doesn't force any quotas, you seem to be confused on this one dude. They wouldn't have to drag any old black managers along BUT if any black managers did apply, they'd be obliged to give at least one an interview based on competence criteria

I think, with all due respect, it is very easy for middle-aged white men to cast aspersions on what does and does not constitute racism without ever actually having undergone it themselves. It does make me laugh at times! It's easy to be dismissive of just how far-fetched and institutional racism is in so many facets of life, unless again, you've undergone it yourself.

No one is forced to give a minority a job with this rule and I agree with you Sunderland man that the BEST man for the job should always be the one who gets it. Then again, take a look at someone like Lawrie Sanchez at Fulham or someone like Billy Davies at Preston, and tell me there wasn't a single capable black/ethnic manager anywhere that could have done an equal/better job?

I agree with you that perhaps they just don't apply. So ask yourself: WHY do they not apply?

I'm sure plenty of black managers could have done just as good a job as many of the managers who are around at the minute, tbh the majority of managers are utter shit! The thing is, guaranteeing a black lad an interview wont help them to get a job at all. As you rightly say, the club doesnt have to employ them. Yes, they have to interview them and at least this gives them the platform to try and impress but again, if there is institutionalised racism in football (which obviously there is) then the black lads will still find certain clubs who wont give them a chance regardless of how well they interview. Some clubs would give them a chance, but then these are clubs who would give them a chance currently, so i dont see what the actual benefit is.

As for why more black players dont become managers, I think its a bit of a vicious circle tbh- there are no (successful) black English managers and I think in a lot of cases this means some black players dont really consider it an option. If there was a successful black English manager I reckon a lot more lads would try and follow in his steps. Maybe as you say its a case of them thinking "why should i apply, i wont get it anyway", and if it is its a shame because that means they wont become the first successful black english manager who might pave the way for many others to follow

I simply dont see how this scheme would help change this though since, as you say, it doesnt guarantee them a job. What I think they would be better off doing is putting more effort into schemes to get black players completing their coaching badges during their playing careers. If more black players get their badges and their UEFA licences, it increases the chances of them getting managerial jobs further down the line. Not only ethnic minority players, but there should be more schemes for ethnic minority youths to get involved in football coaching. Investing money in this area will bring more talented black managers through than a guaranteed interview scheme will imo

[flash gunner]

Well, firstly I'm against "positive discrimination" in any form. The idea that because black people were unfairly held back in the past they should now be unfairly pushed forwards is a fucking joke imo. The best thing to do is forget about the past and treat everyone equally. If a black lad is the best man for the job, he should get it, if he isnt, he shouldnt.

My thoughts exactly

[Nos89]

Well, could the FA release information regarding how many black ex-players are on or have completed the full FA coaching badges compared to the amount of black professionals that have been registered with them? That would be a good indicator to prove or disprove institutionalised discrimination.

[rigsby]

Will it make a difference? Just ebcause they have to interview them doesn't mean they would ever give them a job. It seems a small PR stunt tbh.

I'm against discrimination, positive and negative. I think we run the risks of seperating black from white. Everyone should be viewed the same.

Also its not helped by people like John Barnes going on about how black managers aren't given a fair chance. Barnes is a shit manager. Paul Ince on the other hand can have a legt beef with how he was sacked at Blackburn. But was that racism or simply the way modern football has gone?

Ironic as well that the media bang on about too many 'foreigners' and then want this introduced as well. Hypocritical or what?

[Never Outgunned]

I cant say i can think of many black players who have tried and tried to get managerial jobs and never got one.

Paul Davis was denied a coaching position at Arsenal despite being the better qualified candidate.

Steve Bould, who he was up against, turned out to be a decent coach however Paul Davis hasn't got a coaching job anywhere despite not being as qualified as it's possible to be in a coaching sense

[SWLGooner]

I cant say i can think of many black players who have tried and tried to get managerial jobs and never got one.

Paul Davis was denied a coaching position at Arsenal despite being the better qualified candidate.

Steve Bould, who he was up against, turned out to be a decent coach however Paul Davis hasn't got a coaching job anywhere despite not being as qualified as it's possible to be in a coaching sense

Did you mean 'being as qualified as it's possible to be'?

Wasn't Davis a bit of a nutter though in his playing days? Before my time but that's the impression I had. Could explain something.

[Never Outgunned]

oh no, not many black or asian managers in the football league, we must make english clubs interview at least one minority , then no-one can be accused of prejudice!



the world is a better place now, thanks pc brigade . next stop: force clubs to employ at least 10 physically handicapped ballboys. yes they won't be very quick at getting the ball back into play, but we mustn't be discriminatory

You see this is a complete fuckwit response.

I get the point this smacks of positive discrimination, which is a contradiction in terms.

However, with the exception of Andre Villas Boas, all managerial jobs seem to be restricted to former players. Black Football players are at last count 1 in 4 of all footballers, yet there are 2 black managers out of 92 - vastly under-represented.

There wouldn't be a need for this measure if former black players were ever considered - and it is quite clear that they are not.

Why are they not? Because football clubs are mostly run by old white bourgeois men who not too long ago could talk of black people having physical but lacking mental attributes without censure. Don't believe me? See Ron Noades in 1991: 'The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players in there to balance things up and give the team some brains and some common sense' - this is a man who chooses who becomes a manager of football side in one of the top four divisions in English Football - any wonder why there are so few?

[rigsby]

Paul Davis was denied a coaching position at Arsenal

He was. He coached the under 15's iirc. He wanted to move up but Arsenal didn't give hima role.

Bould probably got the coaching role because Wenger knew him as he managed him.

[Never Outgunned]

I cant say i can think of many black players who have tried and tried to get managerial jobs and never got one.

Paul Davis was denied a coaching position at Arsenal despite being the better qualified candidate.

Steve Bould, who he was up against, turned out to be a decent coach however Paul Davis hasn't got a coaching job anywhere despite not being as qualified as it's possible to be in a coaching sense

Did you mean 'being as qualified as it's possible to be'?

Wasn't Davis a bit of a nutter though in his playing days? Before my time but that's the impression I had. Could explain something.

Yes typo there.

No way - Davis, but for that Cockerill incident was fairly mild mannered on and off the pitch.

[Never Outgunned]

Interesting contribution from Davis on Talkshite Radio a few weeks back

http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/kickof ... r-coaching

[Babatunde]

1. Perhaps not many black managers don't bother going into management for the same reason that I refuse to keep paying for flowers to be delivered to Helena Christensen's door: POINTLESS excercise.

2. This is not positive discrimination. Affirmative action is. No advantage is accrued from the actual outcome. What it does do, is to generate the opportunity for people who would otherwise potentially not even come under consideration. I repeat: it doesn't force anyone to give anyone a job, unlike the US.

3. This rule doesn't force any quotas, you seem to be confused on this one dude. They wouldn't have to drag any old black managers along BUT if any black managers did apply, they'd be obliged to give at least one an interview based on competence criteria

I think, with all due respect, it is very easy for middle-aged white men to cast aspersions on what does and does not constitute racism without ever actually having undergone it themselves. It does make me laugh at times! It's easy to be dismissive of just how far-fetched and institutional racism is in so many facets of life, unless again, you've undergone it yourself.

No one is forced to give a minority a job with this rule and I agree with you Sunderland man that the BEST man for the job should always be the one who gets it. Then again, take a look at someone like Lawrie Sanchez at Fulham or someone like Billy Davies at Preston, and tell me there wasn't a single capable black/ethnic manager anywhere that could have done an equal/better job?

I agree with you that perhaps they just don't apply. So ask yourself: WHY do they not apply?

I'm sure plenty of black managers could have done just as good a job as many of the managers who are around at the minute, tbh the majority of managers are utter shit! The thing is, guaranteeing a black lad an interview wont help them to get a job at all. As you rightly say, the club doesnt have to employ them. Yes, they have to interview them and at least this gives them the platform to try and impress but again, if there is institutionalised racism in football (which obviously there is) then the black lads will still find certain clubs who wont give them a chance regardless of how well they interview. Some clubs would give them a chance, but then these are clubs who would give them a chance currently, so i dont see what the actual benefit is.

As for why more black players dont become managers, I think its a bit of a vicious circle tbh- there are no (successful) black English managers and I think in a lot of cases this means some black players dont really consider it an option. If there was a successful black English manager I reckon a lot more lads would try and follow in his steps. Maybe as you say its a case of them thinking "why should i apply, i wont get it anyway", and if it is its a shame because that means they wont become the first successful black english manager who might pave the way for many others to follow

I simply dont see how this scheme would help change this though since, as you say, it doesnt guarantee them a job. What I think they would be better off doing is putting more effort into schemes to get black players completing their coaching badges during their playing careers. If more black players get their badges and their UEFA licences, it increases the chances of them getting managerial jobs further down the line. Not only ethnic minority players, but there should be more schemes for ethnic minority youths to get involved in football coaching. Investing money in this area will bring more talented black managers through than a guaranteed interview scheme will imo

That's possibly the best post I have read on this forum.
Excellent points there.

[SWLGooner]

I'm sure plenty of black managers could have done just as good a job as many of the managers who are around at the minute, tbh the majority of managers are utter shit! The thing is, guaranteeing a black lad an interview wont help them to get a job at all. As you rightly say, the club doesnt have to employ them. Yes, they have to interview them and at least this gives them the platform to try and impress but again, if there is institutionalised racism in football (which obviously there is) then the black lads will still find certain clubs who wont give them a chance regardless of how well they interview. Some clubs would give them a chance, but then these are clubs who would give them a chance currently, so i dont see what the actual benefit is.

As for why more black players dont become managers, I think its a bit of a vicious circle tbh- there are no (successful) black English managers and I think in a lot of cases this means some black players dont really consider it an option. If there was a successful black English manager I reckon a lot more lads would try and follow in his steps. Maybe as you say its a case of them thinking "why should i apply, i wont get it anyway", and if it is its a shame because that means they wont become the first successful black english manager who might pave the way for many others to follow

I simply dont see how this scheme would help change this though since, as you say, it doesnt guarantee them a job. What I think they would be better off doing is putting more effort into schemes to get black players completing their coaching badges during their playing careers. If more black players get their badges and their UEFA licences, it increases the chances of them getting managerial jobs further down the line. Not only ethnic minority players, but there should be more schemes for ethnic minority youths to get involved in football coaching. Investing money in this area will bring more talented black managers through than a guaranteed interview scheme will imo

That's possibly the best post I have read on this forum.
Excellent points there.