wages and the random number generator

[Vinny1967]

Better coaching would help though!

Yep our defense has left a lot to be desired over the last few seasons and our inability to come up with plan B smacks of a stubborn streak in Wenger that is pretty ugly

[augie]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

I agree and disagree at the same time. Not unusual for me
If anyone thinks that anyone outside the top five teams on the list I posted are going to win the League they are delusional. One thing they have in common are they are willing to spend more on salaries than the other teams in the League.
Paying high salaries does not guarantee success but it helps keep important players and attract others.

There are a lot of things correlate to League positions wages being one of them.

Clearly ticket prices isnt one of them

[donaldo]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

Agreed, but when the other four teams offer more in wages and transfer fees, then it's difficult to keep up.

Since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the Arabs Man City who has been the most successful team?Yes the team with the third highest wage bill Man Utd.Its all about good management

[g88ner]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

Agreed, but when the other four teams offer more in wages and transfer fees, then it's difficult to keep up.

Since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the Arabs Man City who has been the most successful team?Yes the team with the third highest wage bill Man Utd.Its all about good management

You've only quoted the first part of my post... I go on to say that without good coaching, money will only get you so far.

But you can't ignore the significance of money. Put Fergie in charge of Swansea and they'll fight for the league, I suppose? no, of course not.

Like it or not, money is essential if you want sustained success.

[Vinny1967]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

Agreed, but when the other four teams offer more in wages and transfer fees, then it's difficult to keep up.

Since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the Arabs Man City who has been the most successful team?Yes the team with the third highest wage bill Man Utd.Its all about good management

Good management is a huge factor in the success of any club. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
However when someone takes over a club and ploughs a fortune into it it does take time for the team to gel. The eleven best players are not always the best team.
I don't think its any coincidence though that Citeh and Chelski won the three big tournaments they entered last year and Utd won nothing.

If we just had a brilliant management team and no finances to attract and keep top players we could not compete. There is some balance needed imo.

[donaldo]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

Agreed, but when the other four teams offer more in wages and transfer fees, then it's difficult to keep up.

Since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the Arabs Man City who has been the most successful team?Yes the team with the third highest wage bill Man Utd.Its all about good management

You've only quoted the first part of my post... I go on to say that without good coaching, money will only get you so far.

But you can't ignore the significance of money. Put Fergie in charge of Swansea and they'll fight for the league, I suppose? no, of course not.

Like it or not, money is essential if you want sustained success.

Of course it is but unlike our manager who threw the towel in and has settled only for a top 4 place Ferguson continues to challenge and beat the two teams who spend more than him.This year was the worse Utd team for 20 years yet lost the title on GD

Put Wenger in charge of Swansea and they would be relegated

[kite]

Why do wages have to correlate to league positions? There is more to being a football team than how much people earn, i understand that supposedly the more you pay the better players you get but there is more to football than that ie tactics, producing a team with compatible playing members etc etc etc.... Because we are the 5th highest payers doesnt mean that anywhere above 5th is good

Agreed, but when the other four teams offer more in wages and transfer fees, then it's difficult to keep up.

Since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the Arabs Man City who has been the most successful team?Yes the team with the third highest wage bill Man Utd.Its all about good management

Good management is a huge factor in the success of any club. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
However when someone takes over a club and ploughs a fortune into it it does take time for the team to gel. The eleven best players are not always the best team.
I don't think its any coincidence though that Citeh and Chelski won the three big tournaments they entered last year and Utd won nothing.

If we just had a brilliant management team and no finances to attract and keep top players we could not compete. There is some balance needed imo.

I agree. Maybe United won't win another trophy for the next five years? It might just happen.

[g88ner]

Of course it is but unlike our manager who threw the towel in and has settled only for a top 4 place Ferguson continues to challenge and beat the two teams who spend more than him.This year was the worse Utd team for 20 years yet lost the title on GD

Agreed, Fergie is a great manager. Wenger is tactically inept.

[SWLGooner]

Well surely considering we know the players we have, and we know the total wage bill, we can deduce that far, far too much money is spent on players? It doesn't need to be to the nearest two decimal places.

[g88ner]

Well surely considering we know the players we have, and we know the total wage bill, we can deduce that far, far too much money is spent on players? It doesn't need to be to the nearest two decimal places.

Agreed. We get the gist of our wage bill and how it's distributed, and that's enough.

[SWLGooner]

Well surely considering we know the players we have, and we know the total wage bill, we can deduce that far, far too much money is spent on players? It doesn't need to be to the nearest two decimal places.

Agreed. We get the gist of our wage bill and how it's distributed, and that's enough.

Agreement on the Online Gooner? Can't be.

[Babatunde]

Aaaah quelle surprise.
G88ner detracts from the wages argument by asserting there is 'no access to the books'.
Oh right - in which case, since Deloitte, Forbes and CNN do not have access to the ins and outs of the Arsenal books and wages, I suppose that they can all shut down their football finance sections, hand out P45s and be on their way eh?
I mean....why even bloody bother compiling lists on estimates when G88ner has said that all discussion ought to be redundant since no one KNOWS for FACT what the wages are?


I am used to hearing this diversionary rubbish from those of an affectionate emotional disposition towards Our Dear Leader.

The problem with you claiming Arsenal Truth's wage figures are skewed, is that Nigel Phillips (Arsenal Treasury so you'd think he would have a clue), confirmed that the figures posted online were extremely close to being spot on in accuracy. What do you argue to that now?

And again, quelle surprise, you have used the 'We are punching above our weight'.

Pure comedy nonsense. It's an almost embarrassing thing now.

Really? 'Punching above our weight'.

It's comical, because it seems that Wenger's apologists, or those seeking to perpetuate a fictitious agenda that Arsenal are in great shape, like to propagate this bollocks so let us kill it dead once and for all: Arsenal are NOT punching above their weight.

You have selectively picked the wages figure out there - the same ones whose accuracy you dispute - but have been happy to use this 'guesstimate' to promote this myth that Arsenal 'punch above their weight'.

No. Arsenal do NOT punch above their weight.

Pick up a copy of Deloitte or pick up a copy of Forbes and you will see Arsenal listed as the 4th richest club in European football. Yet, if you observe Arsenal's transfer spend, it's less than bloody Bolton Wanderers.

Arsenal cannot be 'punching above their weight' when they have a trophy record over seven years inferior to Portsmouth, Spuds and Birmingham. You're having a bloody laugh aren't you?

'Punching above their weight'? Jesus Christ.

Do I really have to point out the natural stupidity of the ridiculous notion that 'you should finish in the table where your wages dictate'

What kind of bollocks is this? Only desperate Arsenal fans use this nonsense notion.

How did Montpellier win the league in France ahead of PSG?
How did Valencia win two league titles when competing against the might of Real and Barca?
How did Newcastle and Spuds finish ahead of the highest wage spenders, Chelski?
How have Dortmund won back to back Bundesliga titles with a wage bill inferior to that of Aston Villa?
How did Arsenal win the league in 1989 despite being blown out the water on wages by teams such as Liverpool and even Manure?

It's a farcial and desperate argument to suggest that football has ever been as simplistic as 'you finish where your wage bill dictates'.

Somehow, Arsene's Little Helpers have managed to formulate a whole new excuse for his 'genius' (LOL) by claiming he is in fact OVERACHIEVING give his 'reosurces'!

Yeah sure. In which case, give Pardew and Redknapp a couple of MBEs for finishing ahead of Chelski then eh?

Yeah forget that 7 years without a trophy, forget the overpaying of pure rubbish, forget that Arsenal can ACTUALLY afford to match the biggest teams on wages but CHOOSE not to, ignore all those facts. Forget what the performance tells you:

ARSENE IS OVER-ACHIEVING.

What an absolute joke.

Oh by the way G88ner, until you have full access to the Greek government books, I don;t ever expect you, or anyone to have any discussions on the Euro and how they got in this mess, because you never had full access to the books, so you cannot therefore hold an opinion based on published information and widely researched/acknowledged bits.

Let's shut up all discussion until anyone SEES the wage books with their two eyes.

[Babatunde]

Also G88ner, I would just like to - whilst you're in the mood to point out pedantry - what you argued with the other day.

You claimed (and I will re-post the quote), that Arsenal 'could not compete' with Chelski etc.

I subsequently pointed out to you that you were talking garbage, since Arsenal actually finished ahead of Chelski.
I also gave you numerous examples of other teams with smaller resources (Spuds, Newcastle) who outperformed them domestically.

When it then became clear to you that this would defeat your frankly silly excuse, you reverted to

'Well, we can compete if they make mistakes. But errr...if they sign the right players and managers then we cannot'.

FrankButcher also pointed out what a hypocritical argument this was on your behalf- it means I can never win the argument then eh? If a poorer team outperforms a richer one, then it's down to the richer one making mistakes. Purely. Ok.

But if a richer team does outperform the poorer one, then it is down to the norm.

So basically, you have all bases covered with this 'argument'.

One day when you've stopped making frankly embarrassing statements alluding (note use of the word here) to wages correlating with league performance - when a look around every European league statistically defeats your argument - then come back and we chat about this again.

[Babatunde]

So I suppose it can be argued that we are punching above our weight with our League position and regular 3/4th place trophy when compared with others.

Agreed. I don't think anyone doubts we should be spending our money more efficiently, but if it's true that we have the 5th highest wage bill in England, then finishing 3rd could be considered above par.

Better coaching would help though!

To that end we have to work smarter and not have the debacle we had last year of the signings on the last day of the transfer window when the season is already 3 weeks old

Absolutely; we need to be much smarter. Last summer was a farce!

Do Barca have Alan Pardew's telephone number then? Or Redknapp's?
Because if Arsenal's performance/wage bill ratio is 'above par' then wow, those two managers must be RInus Michels and Alex Ferguson rolled into one...

Here you have the difference between big clubs and Arsenal:

Manure fans: don't care bout Citeh's wage bill, Chelski wage bill etc etc. They failed to win and that is all that counts. No excuses about retarded wage bills, 'above par' etc.

Arsenal fans: 'Third place is above par'.

There you have it.

[Herd]

The figures arent accurate ,Paul Johnson and all the minor coaches is and are not on 260,000 per annum ..........more like 40.............

Bunch of made up figures with no substance to them,like most of baba's arguments they are great fodder for this gullible disgruntled ones !