Anti-Semitism is creeping back (28/1)

[gasman]

Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

Well no.

Except that Gooner isn't a racial term.

And doesn't provoke people to sing songs about 20th century genocide as terrace banter.

**** is not a racial term, as jewish is a religion not a race how can it be racial?

[DanielD]

Does anyone here know any Jews and/or their stance on the issue?

As i said in the previous thread about this matter, "Idiots", I live in Israel and i'm jewish.
There's a pretty large community of Arsenal fans in Israel, mostly jewish. We have our own fan's football team, shirts, forum, etc.

The holocaust chants are just sick and are very very offensive for me as a jewish person.
You have to understand that 6 million jews we're murdered during The holocaust (1939-1945), just because they we're jewish. People chanting about it in a football pitch is as worst as it can get.

The "Y" word is offensive to me as well. The fact is Spurs we're called **** as an abusive racial term and they turned it into their name, to get the sting out of these chants. The word **** means jewish, just like nigger means a black person.

To the poster who argues that supporting Israel is somehow akin to supporting the Holocaust, that is just ridiculous. Your grandfather served his country in the war, and yes, there was Jewish terrorism against theBritish in the years up to 1948...which is regretable. But without lanching into a long history/politics discussion, there were simple reasons for that, and simple reasons as to why Israel now fights terrorists from Gaza etc. It's called war! To equate Israel with Nazis is offensive and absurd, at no point has or is Israel involved in genocide. Please do not rely on the BBC and Guardian for your news on that topic, it is simply mis informed.

QuartzGonner, i think your post is absolutely correct.

By the way, you might be the first person that see the fact that the BBC and other european media are very Pro-Arabic. I don't want to be too political, but there is a regime of terror in Gazza and it's called Hamas.

[matmos]

Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

Well no.

Except that Gooner isn't a racial term.

And doesn't provoke people to sing songs about 20th century genocide as terrace banter.

**** is not a racial term, as jewish is a religion not a race how can it be racial?

You're being incredibly picky and missing the point which is that race-hate or religious bigotry is wrong. The holocaust didnt happen over night, it happened because by a steady process of chipping away the boundaries of decency, people began to accept that its ok to systematically destroy people who are different.

To clarify your misunderstanding, Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people / culture.

[SPUDMASHER]

Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

Well no.

Except that Gooner isn't a racial term.

And doesn't provoke people to sing songs about 20th century genocide as terrace banter.

**** is not a racial term, as jewish is a religion not a race how can it be racial?

You're being incredibly picky and missing the point which is that race-hate or religious bigotry is wrong. The holocaust didnt happen over night, it happened because by a steady process of chipping away the boundaries of decency, people began to accept that its ok to systematically destroy people who are different.

To clarify your misunderstanding, Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people / culture.

Matmos is right here. If as Gasman says Judaism cannot be considered as a race because it is a religion then the same must apply to Islam. Therefore, why can you be prosecuted for 'race hate' crimes if you write/speak or enact anything offensive to muslims?

I think that proves that in legal terms that Judaism would be considered a race in modern society and therefore any attack based upon it is racist.

[GoonerJim]

Therefore calling a Spurs fan a **** is like calling an Arsenal fan Gooner. Normal.

Well no.

Except that Gooner isn't a racial term.

And doesn't provoke people to sing songs about 20th century genocide as terrace banter.

**** is not a racial term, as jewish is a religion not a race how can it be racial?

You're being incredibly picky and missing the point which is that race-hate or religious bigotry is wrong. The holocaust didnt happen over night, it happened because by a steady process of chipping away the boundaries of decency, people began to accept that its ok to systematically destroy people who are different.

To clarify your misunderstanding, Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people / culture.

Matmos is right here. If as Gasman says Judaism cannot be considered as a race because it is a religion then the same must apply to Islam. Therefore, why can you be prosecuted for 'race hate' crimes if you write/speak or enact anything offensive to muslims?

I think that proves that in legal terms that Judaism would be considered a race in modern society and therefore any attack based upon it is racist.

Actually any offensive/criminal act with regards to Muslims is done under religious bigotry legislation - *not* under racism legislation as Islam isnt a race either. If we are going to go along that lines then christians surely must be a race too - when they arent.
Please try and distinguish between a race (i.e Israeli, European, Arab etc) and religion (Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew etc)

[SPUDMASHER]

response to above.

If that is the case, during the marches a year or so back in London, a muslim dressed as a suicide bomber. Why was he arrested and charged with inciting racial hatred? Answer, because it is the same law!!!!!!

also, have a look here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6140574.stm

[GoonerJim]

response to above.

If that is the case, during the marches a year or so back in London, a muslim dressed as a suicide bomber. Why was he arrested and charged with inciting racial hatred? Answer, because it is the same law!!!!!!

also, have a look here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6140574.stm

Ah now theres where the issue blurs - in that case i think it was to do with the fact that it wasnt totally aimed at the religion itself - but the races that make up the Muslim community in Britain.
The fact is though if you ask a jew in America what race they 9/10 times they will say American but if you ask what religion im willing to bet they would say Jewish - hence the distinction.

And to be honest the government need to pull their thumb out and make the distinctions clearer too.

[SPUDMASHER]

response to above.

If that is the case, during the marches a year or so back in London, a muslim dressed as a suicide bomber. Why was he arrested and charged with inciting racial hatred? Answer, because it is the same law!!!!!!

also, have a look here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6140574.stm

Ah now theres where the issue blurs - in that case i think it was to do with the fact that it wasnt totally aimed at the religion itself - but the races that make up the Muslim community in Britain.
The fact is though if you ask a jew in America what race they 9/10 times they will say American but if you ask what religion im willing to bet they would say Jewish - hence the distinction.

And to be honest the government need to pull their thumb out and make the distinctions clearer too.

You're right, they do need to clarify things but as any attempt to do so potentially puts you in the line of fire, can you see any of them risking their jobs and pensions to do so?

Regardless of what laws exist etc. we simply do not need to refer to them by using the 'Y' word. We have plenty of other piss take names for them such as 'tiny totts' and 'spuds'. I cannot for the life of me see why people insist on using the other name for them, unless of course they are trying to be more offensive, in which case they are guilty as hell of racism.

[NBN]

"tinytotts"?? "spuds"?? that is fucking embarassing. The **** always have been and always will be the ****. The fact that it is even being debated is pathetic, leave the pc/liberal bollocks away from the football. The holocaust songs is a different matter and can understand some of the viewpoints on here, just think people need to be less precious about things that happen at football.

[SPUDMASHER]

Like I said "unless they are trying to be more offensive in which case they are guilty as hell of racism".

[Cus Geezer]

There's too much here for me to go over as I'm currently busy with work and I'll clarify a few things later.

But first - on the subject of whether Jews are a race or not. This is the 3rd time having to clarify this for fuck sake, some people just don't bother listening

Race is pseudo-science and Biologists and anthropologists generally don't consider race to be a sound scientific concept. Race is better understood as being a social construct, not a biological one.

The Jews are also considered a race especially in modern Europe, particularly in Nazi Germany where you were a Jew if your grandparents were such and thus forced to wear a star of David, regardless of whether you practiced or not. Indeed people such as Felix Mendelson and Karl Marx were never practising Jews but were considered to be so.

Jews were considered to have physical characteristics that differed from Europeans - i.e. swarthy skin and a prominent nose and eyebrows. Think the 'dirty Jew' propaganda posters of Nazi Germany.

[Galasso]

5.) To the poster who argues that supporting Israel is somehow akin to supporting the Holocaust, that is just ridiculous. Your grandfather served his country in the war, and yes, there was Jewish terrorism against theBritish in the years up to 1948...which is regretable. But without lanching into a long history/politics discussion, there were simple reasons for that, and simple reasons as to why Israel now fights terrorists from Gaza etc. It's called war! To equate Israel with Nazis is offensive and absurd, at no point has or is Israel involved in genocide. Please do not rely on the BBC and Guardian for your news on that topic, it is simply mis informed.

I like the use of the word regrettable QuartzGooner, it's the word Tony Blair used when presenting Britain's apology for the slave trade. It's the word someone who can't say "sorry" uses.

Of course you can't equate the Israelis with the Nazis but I am sure that the people of Gaza, however The BBC/Guardian and whoever else cover it, regret having to live in squalor having been forced out of their homes and off their land and property (now which other people have suffered that fate?), while their neighbour Israel lives in relative prosperity. And with 30 billion dollar handouts from the US government and years of f**k-ups by the pompous British Empire.

And those songs relating to the holocaust are sick and wrong. Stop it now.

[DanielD]

Of course you can't equate the Israelis with the Nazis but I am sure that the people of Gaza, however The BBC/Guardian and whoever else cover it, regret having to live in squalor having been forced out of their homes and off their land and property (now which other people have suffered that fate?), while their neighbour Israel lives in relative prosperity. And with 30 billion dollar handouts from the US government and years of f**k-ups by the pompous British Empire.

First of all, am i suppouse to be sorry because my country is doing pretty well financaly?

Second, the people in gaza chosen Hamas in the elections. I'm not sure how well do you know that Organization, but it was and still is, a terrorist Organization. The israeli city of Sderot is being bombed day and night by Hamas, do you find that to be justified? They are shooting these missiles from citizens' houses and than people don't understand why citizens are killed.

They won't show you on the BBC what Hamas teaches at schools in gaza, mostly hatred of Israel. They won't show the TV shows (a cartoon for kids, of course) in which an Israeli soldier kills a little boy's friend and than the little boy becomes a Shaid (suicide bomber), who gets the respect of a hero.

By the way, do you know who supports Hamas? Iran (With a president that say in every speech that Israel should be destroyed and denies the Holocaust) and El -Kahida (do i really need to say what they have done?).

Just a little example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

[SPUDMASHER]

So do we permit the use of the 'Y' word on the forum?

I've made my views quite clear as have several others from both sides of the debate. Is it time to put it to the vote? Will those that are on the losing side agree to either stop doing it or accept its use?

Time to make a decision I think. Why don't we run a poll for two weeks and go from there?

[GoonerJim]

There's too much here for me to go over as I'm currently busy with work and I'll clarify a few things later.

But first - on the subject of whether Jews are a race or not. This is the 3rd time having to clarify this for fuck sake, some people just don't bother listening

Race is pseudo-science and Biologists and anthropologists generally don't consider race to be a sound scientific concept. Race is better understood as being a social construct, not a biological one.

The Jews are also considered a race especially in modern Europe, particularly in Nazi Germany where you were a Jew if your grandparents were such and thus forced to wear a star of David, regardless of whether you practiced or not. Indeed people such as Felix Mendelson and Karl Marx were never practising Jews but were considered to be so.

Jews were considered to have physical characteristics that differed from Europeans - i.e. swarthy skin and a prominent nose and eyebrows. Think the 'dirty Jew' propaganda posters of Nazi Germany.

They werent the only ones - the Irish were called thr blacks of Europe... in fact i seem to remember being told about signs on board housing saying ''No blacks, No dogs, No irish''