As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
marcengels wrote:The curse of the big talking Arsenal players strikes again. This time, Djourou, after his call to arms in praise of the Wenger project, reminds us today what a pathetic fucking central defender he really is.
If he's the best we've got, and possible first choice, then I think that tells us where we are right now.
May I add marc, that for all the good things he might have done during the season, just for the way he conceded the third goal vs. stoke, I would never ever have Djourou in our back 4 again!!!
It's not just that FG, he generally keeps losing his man at set pieces, not commanding enough, gets turned easily on the ground.
I have no confidence in this guy to take us forward.
Unfortunalty I don't have much more confidence in Kos or squillaci, and what scares me the most is that whenever TV will comes back, we will expect him to solve all our defensive problems...
marcengels wrote:The curse of the big talking Arsenal players strikes again. This time, Djourou, after his call to arms in praise of the Wenger project, reminds us today what a pathetic fucking central defender he really is.
If he's the best we've got, and possible first choice, then I think that tells us where we are right now.
Well said.
Moving forward comes down to this.
If more money is going to be made available and spent is a managerial change necessary
If more money is not going to be made available is a managerial change going to matter at all
marcengels wrote:The curse of the big talking Arsenal players strikes again. This time, Djourou, after his call to arms in praise of the Wenger project, reminds us today what a pathetic fucking central defender he really is.
If he's the best we've got, and possible first choice, then I think that tells us where we are right now.
Well said.
Moving forward comes down to this.
If more money is going to be made available and spent is a managerial change necessary
If more money is not going to be made available is a managerial change going to matter at all
It depends if you believe that the problem exists with the manager and/or the resources (This is rhetorical USM, please I'm begging you, don't! )
I believe that there is a big issue with the Manager, and they way that he is running the team.
Wenger has been making the same mistakes now for the last 5 years. This is irrespective of players signed or not.
I would like a managerial change, and more money to be made available/or existing resources fully utilised.
Finishing in the top four is not success measured against our wage outlay, it is to be expected. And if Wenger is something special as many would believe, then surely he should be producing something special. And he is not, he is producing something very ordinary.
Last edited by marcengels on Mon May 09, 2011 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
marcengels wrote:The curse of the big talking Arsenal players strikes again. This time, Djourou, after his call to arms in praise of the Wenger project, reminds us today what a pathetic fucking central defender he really is.
If he's the best we've got, and possible first choice, then I think that tells us where we are right now.
Well said.
Moving forward comes down to this.
If more money is going to be made available and spent is a managerial change necessary
If more money is not going to be made available is a managerial change going to matter at all
Martin, I can't agree with you.
I hate myself for saying this, but IMO it's not about the money and new signings, it's about "mental strengh" which we don't have! It's about hunger (shown by the players AND the manager) and no money or new manager can buy this!
marcengels wrote:The curse of the big talking Arsenal players strikes again. This time, Djourou, after his call to arms in praise of the Wenger project, reminds us today what a pathetic fucking central defender he really is.
If he's the best we've got, and possible first choice, then I think that tells us where we are right now.
Well said.
Moving forward comes down to this.
If more money is going to be made available and spent is a managerial change necessary
If more money is not going to be made available is a managerial change going to matter at all
It depends if you believe that the problem exists with the manager and/or the resources.
I believe that there is a big issue with the Manager, and they way that he is running the team.
Wenger has been making the same mistakes now for the last 5 years. This is irrespective of players signed or not.
I would like a managerial change, and more money to be made available/or existing resources fully utilised.
Finishing in the top four is not success measured against our wage outlay, it is to be expected. And if Wenger is something special as many would believe, then surely he should be producing something special. And he is not, he is producing something very ordinary.
I do not agree entirely but your position is far more reasoned than most as it clearly makes increased investment as important as managerial change, which I think has to be the case no matter who manages this team at this time.
SteveO 35 wrote:I would normally let stuff like this go and I certainly don't intend to carry on this debate after this post but frankly Martin you are not playing ball here.
Sagna has been here for 4 years, Clichy for 7. Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn joined Arsenal in 1988 and 1987 before winning the title in 1989; prior to that they were journeymen full backs that had spent the majority of their careers outside the top flight. So please don't play the lack of experience card - it simply isn't true. You seem able to justify Song still learining his trade after 3 years in a role; these guys were taking over Liverpool's invincible mantle and winning titles in less than that time.
Steve Bould joined Arsenal in 1988 also having spent the majority of his career outside the top flight. Johan Djourou has been here since 2004, supposedly learning from the likes of Campbell, spent a year at Birmingham and has had an intermittent career since then. I admit his injuries have disrupted his progress but he's not a baby anymore. What the hell was he doing for that 3rd goal today; honestly that was the sort of defending I occasionally see in the Blue Square South
If Arsene Wenger decided to 'invest' the small matter of €8m-€10m on a player that has spent his career kicking about in Ligue 2 then that is not the board's problem. He could easily have recruited a decent PL centre half for that fee (Cahill cost Bolton £4.5m, Huth about the same for Stoke). Heaven forbid; he could even try looking in the Championship as Graham once did. But no - his policy is French first, anywhere else 'cheap' second and English last.
Facts
George Graham built a defence on a shoestring budget
Three of the regular players in that defence had a maximum of 2 years top flight experience when they won it
Arsenal could not afford the top players back then either
Honestly Martin I implore you - read the book. Six versus four drills day in day out, repeated offside drills so that it happened naturally. Set pieces for and against - day in, day out. Watch the videos of how we used to score goals regularly from set plays (something we now seem to think is beneath us and only befitting of clubs like Stoke). Accept that there are coaches in world football that can produce better defences that Wenger can on comparable or smaller budgets and leave it there please
BTW - the Board are still c**ts
Its good night from me.....
Steve here is a fact if you go to Arseblog in 2006 or 2007 you will see a concversation a chap named would you believe it(me at the time) had with yet another Arsenal supporter insisting that Arsene Wenger just didn't want to spend the money he had(not suggesting you are saying that btw but I think you know there are a few here who do), and so I asked okay let's assume you are right - let's sack him then. What would then say if we didn't go out and buy the players we need to buy. And this bloke said he would give the Board five years because they had hired a new man before questioning their ambtion.
Is that really what you want to happen here? Do you want them to feed you the placebo of a managerial change alone so they can continue to fleece us while investing nothing back? Because if you think they wouldn't do that I fear you are sadly mistaken. In fact I suspect they would happily install Tony Adams and Martin Keown and count on the supporters good will toward them to cover the fact that they haven't invested a penny more.
Advocatung for a mamagerial change alone is merely advocating for a place3bo and nothing more and it wiill be too late once this is clear to do anything more until the the team suffers further decline and damage that costs even more to correct.. We must pressure the Club be it the Board as a whole or Mr. Kroenke tom invest the money we need to invest no matter who the manager is now, because already it will cost far more than it would have had we done it incrementally the past several years.
And if we don't do it now the possibility of declining further increases and that means that it will cost far far more than it would now even. Imagine even if cesc and Nasri stay this year but we get passed out otf the top four. How much would the players we couild have bought for 30 million the past few years who will cost about 70 million now cost when their clubs and agents know we are genuinely desperate to buy them? 100 million? And what about replacing the players who will undoubtedly leave withoutn Champions League football or bumper wages?
There is no simple solution here, no magic bullet. We cannot afford to pretend there is and worse allow TPTB to pretend there is either. It doesn't matter who the manager is because we have needs that must be addressed all over the pitch, and if the money is not made available to address them properly to whoever manages Arsenal then we simply will be opening new holes in different places to plug the older holes we see now.
You've ignored every fact I've put your way about poor defending and coaching. I'm not advocating a change of manager alone. FFS - I wanted Usmanov and Dein controlling this club years ago. I want Gazidis gone, together with the expensive commercial team that couldn't orgainise a sponsorship deal anymore than a piss-up in a brewery and I want our football club back. There, I've said it again...
Now your turn. Re-read my post and accept that GG was able to produce a succesful defence (no, the best defence in the country for a decade or more) on a shoestring budget through meticulous planning and attention to detail, with players less (or certainly no more) experienced than the defenders we have now, and with a smaller coaching team too.
Please accept the fact that Wenger is negligent in this regard. FFS - even read the guy's latest comments post-Stoke. He can't even find a solution.
Martin, I've worked in senior management positions and directorships for years now. One of the first fundamentals - hire a team around you that make up for your own shortcomings. We know Wenger produces great footballing sides; there's not a lot that most coaches can teach him in that regard. But it's clear he does not know how to produce great defences - he needs help...and that is not a crime. Not admitting or addressing the shortcomings - that is a crime.
I haven't ignored it at all. I simply think you over-simplify the whole situation.
Example - what exactly do you think happened from 1998-2005, better still from 2002-2005? Do you think someone else managed the club, picked and bought then players and decided how they trained? And if such a proud successful man who was coveted by so many other clubs and on a much smaller wage at Arsenal then too wasn't running his own team why would he have stayed on?
The point is you ignore or minimize the fact that all off this coincided with the Board pursuing a policy of over-borrowing to pursue a project that mad them richer and little else to now, and we can't afford to, Especially not if that can be used by TPTB to continue underinvesting in the team because they feel that making this change will be enough to appease most people.
I will say this again.
If more money will be made available now given what happened when it was from 1998-2005 I see nor reason to change the manager.
If more money will not be made available given what has happened since 2006 I see no reason a new manager can make the difference you want to believe.
Just remember this - our problems are not confined to the back four and goalkeeper, and if sufficient funding is not made available then in order to fix the problems at the back we will have to sacrifice qulaity in other parts of the pitch. In other wards it is more likely a new more defesnsive Arsenal looks more like the end of the Graham Era than the peak of it.
Steve I know you understand a lot of this very well so I don't understand your eagerness to opt for sucjh an overly simple solution. Can another manager build a better defensive team on the same budget? Quite possibly thpough not certainly . Can the build a better team? No and I would say that is certain, as under this budget to build a better defence would require weakening us in other areas of the pitch and prbably weakening squad depth and its not like that hasn't been an issue the past few years..
Don't forget - Cesc is probably leaving for more silverware and the one man who could seriously replace him in this team now looks like he may be leaving either for more more silver or more more siilverware.
Looking at our offence without them on the pitch, do you believe it is good enough to win the Premiership wiothout them and without serious re-inforcement (assuming either Arsene Wenger or a new manager uses the funds available to rebuild defensively). I mean we scored a slightly fotutitous goal to beat a United side that didn't need a point from that match and played like it really and then couldn't muster a real chance to score agaionst Stoke until fairly deep into the second half.
P 2 W1 D0 L1 F2 A3 - is that the attack of a potential Champion even with the defence strengthened at the back?
Fixing one problem by creating another is doing nothing in effect, so whoever the manager is we cannot pretend that alone will make the difference because it simply won't. It won't.
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