LIVERPOOL AWAY THREAD

[augie]

In fairness, whatever criticisms people have of wilshere, a lack of workrate should not be one of them - to me he was the only player that worked his arse off from start to finish regardless of how well or poorly him and the team were doing.

The papers are having a go at moyes this morning saying that his tactics are too predictable but yet le cock seems to be adverse to the same questions ? A few years ago wenker was slated for having no Plan B but at least back then we had a quality Plan A where as now we have fcuk all except an ability to be flat track bullies

I find it amusing questioning tony colbert and the fitness staff - it's not that I disagree with you cos I do think that they should be under thge spotlight too, but this is the guy that wenker appointed to take the training session ahead of bouldie last season when le cock was injured

[topgoon]

So what does all this tell us about the current Arsenal Team and it’s Manager

1. We still cannot defend set pieces , Zonal marking still doesn’t work ,and our back four do not have enough pace to withstand all out attack without help from the midfield
2. Wilshere ,Carzola and Ozil are luxury players and we can ill afford to field them all at the same time without workers in the team,Arteta is too old and slow to play defensive midfield without help and Giroud simply isn’t good enough for a team with title ambitions .
3. Our fitness coaching has a very serious defect and is affecting players performance and health .
4. Our managers coaching and one dimensional style of play is not fit for purpose in a modern game, his lack of vision in altering style when things are going Pete Tong, timing and use with substitutions’ is third rate. His failure to bolster the squad has cost us time and again.

The inescapable conclusion is that Arsenal can Never win the League or Champions League until the above is rectified however there since there are no plans to change the order then Nothing will change.

We can bounce back but after a mauling like that I doubt if we will !

Not sure I agree on the Jack comment. Jack is a worker but he has become such a target both home and away that I would only play him with Rambo and Flamini. The trio of Cazorla,Ozil and wilshire should only be played at home against weak cannon fodder.

I agree with everything else sadly.

[DB10GOONER]

I think I can sum the game and the previous 27 pages up in the following;

We made Jordan fucking Henderson, the most average player in the history of world football, look world class. Shameful.

[SPARKSY]

Seems to me like this team still doesn't really believe they have much chance of winning the crunch games. Tactically we are inevitably found wanting in these sorts of games but even so the level of performance at Old Trafford, here and Etihad were inexcusable.

Christ look at our record at Spurs, it's a joke. 2 points from our last 5 games there. Our fear in these sorts of games has cropped up when we've got near winning trophies over the past few years - like our clamming up vs United 2009, Chelsea 2009, Brum 2011 and Bradford last year.

You can afford a few bad results against rivals over a season and still succeed but you cannot expect to be beaten convincingly more or less every time and still go on to prosper. Look at the seasons where we won the league, coincidence we had good records against the other top teams?

Its hard to know what to make of our team. One point off the top and still vey much in contention.
However, we cannot beat the teams around us, United, City and Liverpool all bad, bad defeats. That doesn't bode well.
I'm sure we all want to believe we can challenge but none of us are convinced and those results confirm that. Still, if we can beat United and then LIverpool in the cup, then i'd settle for 2 wins and that defeat this week.
Certailny, i think the team against Liverpool will now be a strong one as Wenger can't afford 2 defeats to them within a week.

[augie]

Seems to me like this team still doesn't really believe they have much chance of winning the crunch games. Tactically we are inevitably found wanting in these sorts of games but even so the level of performance at Old Trafford, here and Etihad were inexcusable.

Christ look at our record at Spurs, it's a joke. 2 points from our last 5 games there. Our fear in these sorts of games has cropped up when we've got near winning trophies over the past few years - like our clamming up vs United 2009, Chelsea 2009, Brum 2011 and Bradford last year.

You can afford a few bad results against rivals over a season and still succeed but you cannot expect to be beaten convincingly more or less every time and still go on to prosper. Look at the seasons where we won the league, coincidence we had good records against the other top teams?

And yet some fans point to the beating of the shite teams as a reason why we can challenge/win a league

I understand part of the "we cant compete with citeeh or the chavs" argument because having that much money allows them to have 20+ quality players whilst we obviously cant - that being said, they can only play 11 players at any one time and we are a top quality striker and a big physical DM away from being as good a first team as them. Obviously when injuries kick in, we have less room to manoeuvre than those two teams but that doesn't mean we should hold up the white flag and sit on the £100m nesting in the bank cos if we are to win trophies again then we need to target these teams and beat them or else we will always be their bitches

[goonersid]

Anyone who didn't see that coming knows fuck all about football. We have been winging it away from home all season, not turning up in the first half only to get away with it cos the opposition were shite, I said on here as soon as we played someone decent we would get fucked.

[Clash]

And yet some fans point to the beating of the shite teams as a reason why we can challenge/win a league

I understand part of the "we cant compete with citeeh or the chavs" argument because having that much money allows them to have 20+ quality players whilst we obviously cant - that being said, they can only play 11 players at any one time and we are a top quality striker and a big physical DM away from being as good a first team as them. Obviously when injuries kick in, we have less room to manoeuvre than those two teams but that doesn't mean we should hold up the white flag and sit on the £100m nesting in the bank cos if we are to win trophies again then we need to target these teams and beat them or else we will always be their bitches

Exactly! This is precisely why I think we CAN compete with Chelsea and Man City and could have done all along if we had tried to.

Anyone who doesn’t think we can compete just because we cannot outspend them is looking at the situation in too simplistic a way. Unless the day comes where the wealthiest clubs are allowed to field 15-16 players, then there is still a limit to what advantage having almost limitless funds can give you.

Lets have it right, Arsenal do have the resources to build a team and squad that is strong enough to challenge for the title and the CL in the same season. And there is nothing City and Chelsea can do to stop that because they cannot buy every player.

The fact that we haven't challenged isn’t down to financial restrictions or the wealth of others, it is down to our own choices. It is down to the restrictions we put on ourselves. For whatever reason, Arsenal choose not to use most of the resources available to them. Resources that are substantial enough to build a top quality all round team that would be good enough to win any of the competitions we participate in.

This is what is so infuriating. If the players were only seen to be giving 60-70% in matches every season and were coming up short every year, they would rightly be lambasted. But can we honestly say the club is giving more than 60-70% off the pitch in an effort to be successful on it?

I often hear people saying to get behind the club, keep the faith etc. but how can we do that with any conviction until we can see that the club are doing their bit to succeed?

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

Mmmmm, well it does make a difference if you have 16-17 top quality players, it wouldn't if the season was 10-15 games long but with 50 games it makes a massive difference.

You are right, you can only field 11 players but that is way too a simplistic way of looking at things, it is ok when at the start of the season when players are fit and fresh but as the games take a toll on players fitness levels and injuries mount up then it is bound to take it's toll if you try and field the same 11 players.

We have had our best player out for some time now in Ramsey, wilshere is not recovering fully after his injury because he is being put out there still carrying a knock because we don't have enough numbers.

Theo was a massive blow for us and although most on here will ridicule that notion for me he is our only player that pushes the opposition back trough fear of his pace, he scores goals and makes plenty of assists to boot.

The reason we can't play a counter attacking game is because of our lack of genuine pace and theo is the only one that possesses it imo.

We all know Giroud is a decent player but also a limited one, mainly that limitation is his severe lack of pace, it was no wonder l'pool took us apart, they had 3 lightning quick players and our defence is very limited pace wise as is our midfield.

We need to build a far stronger and faster side if we are ever to be champions again because both chavski and shitty are big powerful strong and extremely fit sides and our diminutive technical players are not going to be able to overcome the deficit in the afore mentioned teams assets on a regular basis.

Saying that I still stand by what I posted previously that losing to chavs, shitty etc would not mean we could not win the league, as long as we kept on beating the lesser sides and shitty and the chavs dropped points against those lesser sides like they had been doing for the first half of the season (and shitty still are) then we could have on the league.

Obviously we dropped 2 against saints (otherwise we would still be top) and thus this argument is now subsiding but it was correct in it's theory

We all know whats going to happen now, the chavs are going to walk the league, shitty second, l'pool third and us fourth.

Pelegrini was right in what he said regarding moaninho, he was making excuses about the league not being his priority this season thus absolving himself of any blame had they come second or third, after all they have spent the most money in the pl ever and this season also

We could have run it closer with the addition of a world class cdm, a world class no 9 and a another top centre half imo.

And before anyone says "well fergie managed to win the league being outspent by the chavs and shitty" Yes, yes he did but fergie was the best football manager the world has ever seen

[topgoon]

The last 2 posts sum everything up about this club and the last game. It's Arsene football club in a nutshell.

[northbank123]

Seems to me like this team still doesn't really believe they have much chance of winning the crunch games. Tactically we are inevitably found wanting in these sorts of games but even so the level of performance at Old Trafford, here and Etihad were inexcusable.

Christ look at our record at Spurs, it's a joke. 2 points from our last 5 games there. Our fear in these sorts of games has cropped up when we've got near winning trophies over the past few years - like our clamming up vs United 2009, Chelsea 2009, Brum 2011 and Bradford last year.

You can afford a few bad results against rivals over a season and still succeed but you cannot expect to be beaten convincingly more or less every time and still go on to prosper. Look at the seasons where we won the league, coincidence we had good records against the other top teams?

And yet some fans point to the beating of the shite teams as a reason why we can challenge/win a league

I understand part of the "we cant compete with citeeh or the chavs" argument because having that much money allows them to have 20+ quality players whilst we obviously cant - that being said, they can only play 11 players at any one time and we are a top quality striker and a big physical DM away from being as good a first team as them. Obviously when injuries kick in, we have less room to manoeuvre than those two teams but that doesn't mean we should hold up the white flag and sit on the £100m nesting in the bank cos if we are to win trophies again then we need to target these teams and beat them or else we will always be their bitches

People of that view tend to believe that it is substantially more difficult to win the league now than 10-15 years ago. I don't agree that that is (necessarily) the case. In all their obsession with modern football people forget what a quality and importantly settled team that United were in the 90s - to depose them we had to produce something unknown to English football in 97/98 and then they pissed all over us next 3 years. In 2001/02 you could easily name 4 or 5 teams that were viewed as capable of winning the league in the same way there are supposedly 3 or 4 now. Look at the relative position of English football within Europe/CL - on that one measure alone the second half of the last decade was the strongest the PL has been in relative terms and therefore perhaps the most difficult to win.

I'm not saying it's a level playing field - it's not. Just like it's not a level playing field for Everton and Spurs to be competing with us, United and Liverpool for CL places.

And look at our record against our challengers the years we won the league - 97/98 we did the double over United, 2001/02 we did the double over them again and Liverpool, 2003/04 we did the double over Chavs and Liverpool not to mention staying unbeaten against the rest. Not being able to win the big games hints at a bigger issue....

[augie]

Mmmmm, well it does make a difference if you have 16-17 top quality players, it wouldn't if the season was 10-15 games long but with 50 games it makes a massive difference.

1.You are right, you can only field 11 players but that is way too a simplistic way of looking at things, it is ok when at the start of the season when players are fit and fresh but as the games take a toll on players fitness levels and injuries mount up then it is bound to take it's toll if you try and field the same 11 players.

2We have had our best player out for some time now in Ramsey, wilshere is not recovering fully after his injury because he is being put out there still carrying a knock because we don't have enough numbers.



3.The reason we can't play a counter attacking game is because of our lack of genuine pace and theo is the only one that possesses it imo.

4We all know Giroud is a decent player but also a limited one, mainly that limitation is his severe lack of pace, it was no wonder l'pool took us apart, they had 3 lightning quick players and our defence is very limited pace wise as is our midfield.

5We need to build a far stronger and faster side if we are ever to be champions again because both chavski and shitty are big powerful strong and extremely fit sides and our diminutive technical players are not going to be able to overcome the deficit in the afore mentioned teams assets on a regular basis.

Lefty I never suggested playing the same 11 every week - what I am saying is that it doesn't take 20+ players to win a league and the likes of citeeh atre using their cash to stockpile players that they aint using. That is the difference between them and us....we cant afford to stockpile players that we don't use BUT we can afford to put together a quality 16 man squad that will win us trophies only our manager and board refuse to do so. If we had of signed a quality striker and a quality DM last summer then I have no doubt that we would be pissing away with this league and that is how close we are without spending money - can you imagine how well we would be doing if we spent all of the available funds ? Does that suggest that we are not in a position to challenge citeeh and the chavs ? A lack of backbone, a lack of tactical acumen, a lack of physical power, a lack of leadership and a lack of a quality finisher are all genuine reasons why we wont win the league.......lack of funds is not.

Ramsey is not our best player but he has been our player of the season

The lack of wally does hinder our pace but no way is it the main reason - there have been countless games in recent seasons when the wally has been playing but our game has still lacked pace. Our game lacks pace because le cock sends them out to play tippy tappy sidewards bullshit football and that is the same regardless of what players are on the pitch

I must admit that your giroud paragraph confused me - are you saying that because giroud has no pace, it was no surprise that the victims tore us apart ?

I think that mr arsehole wenker is the only person that will disagree with you re the need for stronger and faster players

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

Mmmmm, well it does make a difference if you have 16-17 top quality players, it wouldn't if the season was 10-15 games long but with 50 games it makes a massive difference.

1.You are right, you can only field 11 players but that is way too a simplistic way of looking at things, it is ok when at the start of the season when players are fit and fresh but as the games take a toll on players fitness levels and injuries mount up then it is bound to take it's toll if you try and field the same 11 players.

2We have had our best player out for some time now in Ramsey, wilshere is not recovering fully after his injury because he is being put out there still carrying a knock because we don't have enough numbers.



3.The reason we can't play a counter attacking game is because of our lack of genuine pace and theo is the only one that possesses it imo.

4We all know Giroud is a decent player but also a limited one, mainly that limitation is his severe lack of pace, it was no wonder l'pool took us apart, they had 3 lightning quick players and our defence is very limited pace wise as is our midfield.

5We need to build a far stronger and faster side if we are ever to be champions again because both chavski and shitty are big powerful strong and extremely fit sides and our diminutive technical players are not going to be able to overcome the deficit in the afore mentioned teams assets on a regular basis.

Lefty I never suggested playing the same 11 every week - what I am saying is that it doesn't take 20+ players to win a league and the likes of citeeh atre using their cash to stockpile players that they aint using. That is the difference between them and us....we cant afford to stockpile players that we don't use BUT we can afford to put together a quality 16 man squad that will win us trophies only our manager and board refuse to do so. If we had of signed a quality striker and a quality DM last summer then I have no doubt that we would be pissing away with this league and that is how close we are without spending money - can you imagine how well we would be doing if we spent all of the available funds ? Does that suggest that we are not in a position to challenge citeeh and the chavs ? A lack of backbone, a lack of tactical acumen, a lack of physical power, a lack of leadership and a lack of a quality finisher are all genuine reasons why we wont win the league.......lack of funds is not.

Ramsey is not our best player but he has been our player of the season

The lack of wally does hinder our pace but no way is it the main reason - there have been countless games in recent seasons when the wally has been playing but our game has still lacked pace. Our game lacks pace because le cock sends them out to play tippy tappy sidewards bullshit football and that is the same regardless of what players are on the pitch

I must admit that your giroud paragraph confused me - are you saying that because giroud has no pace, it was no surprise that the victims tore us apart ?

I think that mr arsehole wenker is the only person that will disagree with you re the need for stronger and faster players

Fuck off Augie (I'm in Father Ted Mode ) you know full well that I was comparing his lack of pace up front for us and their abundance of pace, trying to belittle my point mate.....POOR, VERY POOR

And your first point is null and void me old mate as I wasn't commenting on your post but the one below where he mentions 16 players

Anyhow apart form that well played

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

Oh yeah you mention Ramsey is not our best player BUT our best player this season.....if Father Ted was allowed on here I would let him answer that

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

The special one has backed up the (my) argument that it may not be the big games that decide the league title but could well be the games against the lower league teams

Me and the special one are on the same wavelength

[DB10GOONER]

The special one has backed up the (my) argument that it may not be the big games that decide the league title but could well be the games against the lower league teams

Me and the special one are on the same wavelength

augie agrees with you??!!

Sorry, just saw the word "special" there and assumed...