The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[A11M11]

Nine EU nations will on Monday (25 June) formalise a plan to create a European military intervention force, a French minister said, with Britain backing the measure as a way to maintain strong defence ties with the bloc after Brexit.

The force, known as the European Intervention Initiative and championed by French President Emmanuel Macron, is intended to be able to deploy rapidly to deal with crises.

Tomato /tomaytoe, Potato /Potatoe , military intervention force / Army,
Same meat different gravy.

[Herd]

Flush fella the Migration Advisory Committee, has been paid for by the government and thus it's independence is far from a given .
I will have a look at it before I respond fully but Im sure it's yet another expensive Pro European propaganda puff piece as there have been and avalanche of them since we decided to Leave paid for by Big Business .

I personally have no issue with immigration per se but I do feel we have imported cheap labour in place of training our own young which is wrong .
We have also allowed the dregs of Europe into the country and the crime increase they have brought with them is quite shocking but under eu rules we cant deport them .
There are also over 100,000 of them claiming benefits ,what good is that doing us FFS ??
HAving worked in a Hospital very recently I seen the waiting rooms full of Eastern Europeans with serious illnesses have gone untreated in their countires but that we of course treat free and gratis .
No-one wants to talk about such things and pretend it isnt happening but it is ,and on a massive scale !

[nut flush gooner]

Flush fella the Migration Advisory Committee, has been paid for by the government and thus it's independence is far from a given .
I will have a look at it before I respond fully but Im sure it's yet another expensive Pro European propaganda puff piece as there have been and avalanche of them since we decided to Leave paid for by Big Business .

I personally have no issue with immigration per se but I do feel we have imported cheap labour in place of training our own young which is wrong .
We have also allowed the dregs of Europe into the country and the crime increase they have brought with them is quite shocking but under eu rules we cant deport them .
There are also over 100,000 of them claiming benefits ,what good is that doing us FFS ??
HAving worked in a Hospital very recently I seen the waiting rooms full of Eastern Europeans with serious illnesses have gone untreated in their countires but that we of course treat free and gratis .
No-one wants to talk about such things and pretend it isnt happening but it is ,and on a massive scale !

The stats come from Oxford Economics in relation to the point I made, if they sourced their data from MAC it seems to be quite convenient to call it politically biased. That seems to be the fashionable thing to do from the brexit side, question any statistic that disproves an argument justifying leaving the EU. After all it's only the government that truly have the information required to produce any credible statistics.

If there are 100,000 immigrants (which really is a pie in the sky figure unless you believe the daily mail!) claiming benefits that morally they may or should not claim, does that not mean given the net contribution of the indigenous population, that there are far more people of British origin that are putting even more strain on our public services?

As for criminals, unfortunately that is a consequence of having open borders and yes the customs union is far from perfect but do you want to apply and pay for a visa every time you visit France or Spain?

Personally I am fed up of this whole process, just want it over and done with either way. It has shown up some people in their true light, feeling brave enough to pedal right wing ideologies. They are much further right than the Conservative party or even UKIP (which a lot of them latch onto). The irony is when they go into the ballot box, given UKIP is no longer a major force in UK politics they go back to voting Labour in their droves, across large swathes of Northern England. But they say ignorance is bliss, thats Brexit in a nutshell.

[Herd]

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-m ... in-the-uk/
Thats from Kings College ,Hardly a Brexit organization or the Daily Mail, and that was from 2015 ,I promise you those figures will show huge rises in subsequent years .
Your figures as it clearly stated if you actually read it instead of your normal cut and paste bollocks ,came a government funded group so whose zooming who here ??

Like most cretins you toss in the "right wing" grenade when anyone dares to mention the very real negative effects of immigration into the UK has had on us .
But in this country if you don't want to acknowledge the reality you simply label views you don't like as extremist or right wing and whoosh you remove their platform for speech call them Nazi's and hey presto you can ignore the problem again.

But this is a Brexit discussion ,I too am fed up with it ,the criminal way its been dealt with and the horrible fact that it wont happen in any valid way pisses me off but please try and stop trying to take some moral highground because there has been none to stand on in this whole process which has been in the sewer since day 1 .

[Gunner Rob]

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-m ... in-the-uk/
Thats from Kings College ,Hardly a Brexit organization or the Daily Mail, and that was from 2015 ,I promise you those figures will show huge rises in subsequent years .
Your figures as it clearly stated if you actually read it instead of your normal cut and paste bollocks ,came a government funded group so whose zooming who here ??

Like most cretins you toss in the "right wing" grenade when anyone dares to mention the very real negative effects of immigration into the UK has had on us .
But in this country if you don't want to acknowledge the reality you simply label views you don't like as extremist or right wing and whoosh you remove their platform for speech call them Nazi's and hey presto you can ignore the problem again.

But this is a Brexit discussion ,I too am fed up with it ,the criminal way its been dealt with and the horrible fact that it wont happen in any valid way pisses me off but please try and stop trying to take some moral highground because there has been none to stand on in this whole process which has been in the sewer since day 1 .

and maybe you should start to acknowledge the benefits that immigration has brought to the UK as well.

and by the way Brexit looks as though it may well happen, just not as you wanted it though ? Well tough, you voted for it and should have considered the consequences. Any Brexiteers who start whining IF Brexit does happen deserve as much abuse as an be thrown at them.

[nut flush gooner]

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/how-m ... in-the-uk/
Thats from Kings College ,Hardly a Brexit organization or the Daily Mail, and that was from 2015 ,I promise you those figures will show huge rises in subsequent years .
Your figures as it clearly stated if you actually read it instead of your normal cut and paste bollocks ,came a government funded group so whose zooming who here ??

Like most cretins you toss in the "right wing" grenade when anyone dares to mention the very real negative effects of immigration into the UK has had on us .
But in this country if you don't want to acknowledge the reality you simply label views you don't like as extremist or right wing and whoosh you remove their platform for speech call them Nazi's and hey presto you can ignore the problem again.

But this is a Brexit discussion ,I too am fed up with it ,the criminal way its been dealt with and the horrible fact that it wont happen in any valid way pisses me off but please try and stop trying to take some moral highground because there has been none to stand on in this whole process which has been in the sewer since day 1 .

Lets put this to bed Herd, because you are not looking at the bigger picture. Ok so your figures have been verified but what percentage of the EU population does that 100k represent, and as a proportion do EU migrants claim more than their UK counterparts. Well here is the proof:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

An interesting quote from the piece:

"EU nationals of working age are more likely to be in work than UK nationals and non-EU citizens. About 82% of working age EU citizens in the UK are in work, compared to around 76% of UK nationals and 63% of people from outside the EU".

So in a nutshell, you can pull off figures about the number of EU migrants that claim benefits in the UK as much as you like, but the facts are as a proportion in comparison to UK nationals they are less of a burden on the state, and as I already stated in my original reply they contribute more to the economy than UK nationals. The evidence is compelling.

With regards to right-wingers, are you telling me that the Brexit vote hasn't upset racial harmony in the UK? The police have statistics about hate crimes committed since the referendum and there definitely has been an upward trend. That's my point, people who may not have been so brave as to project such views generally would have stayed in their hovel pre-referendum but have become distinctly brave since.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/1 ... r-factors/

[Gunner Rob]

so nutflush - did you attend the peoples vote march a couple of weeks ago ?

[nut flush gooner]

so nutflush - did you attend the peoples vote march a couple of weeks ago ?

No I didn't because firstly I had other plans, and secondly the only referendum that should take place now is on the type of brexit we negotiate. Theresa May has made a complete pigs ear out of it so far so anything she puts on the table now, should be scrutinised by the people.

I am also not happy marching alongside Marxists or left wing labour supporters.

If we just have another vote on membership, could you imagine the liberties the Europeans would take if we voted to remain.

I have always been a Eurosceptic, but my position on Brexit was formed more by the damage leaving the EU would do to our economy than anything else. Bit of a better the devil you know type approach if you like, but there is circumstantial proof, that so far things are not going well for our economy. The discussion about immigration only comes up with people who don't know better, and of course those who have more extremist views.

If at the end of the process, we have a free trade deal and customs union that's good enough for me in the current circumstances.

[Gunner Rob]

so nutflush - did you attend the peoples vote march a couple of weeks ago ?

No I didn't because firstly I had other plans, and secondly the only referendum that should take place now is on the type of brexit we negotiate. Theresa May has made a complete pigs ear out of it so far so anything she puts on the table now, should be scrutinised by the people.

I am also not happy marching alongside Marxists or left wing labour supporters.

If we just have another vote on membership, could you imagine the liberties the Europeans would take if we voted to remain.

I have always been a Eurosceptic, but my position on Brexit was formed more by the damage leaving the EU would do to our economy than anything else. Bit of a better the devil you know type approach if you like, but there is circumstantial proof, that so far things are not going well for our economy. The discussion about immigration only comes up with people who don't know better, and of course those who have more extremist views.

If at the end of the process, we have a free trade deal and customs union that's good enough for me in the current circumstances.

1. there won't be another referendum if people like yourself are apathetic
2. all 3 main political parties were represented on the march - it certainly wasn't full of stereotypical left wingers
3. the other members of the EU will take far more liberties with us if we leave than if we were to remain
4. as you are no doubt aware no deal that is put forward is better than we have now - to accept otherwise is pretty defeatist


as far as I can see it Brexit has happened and is happening because:

1. enough of the country bought into the lies and propaganda from the rich right wing elite that want it
2. not enough of the country realised how gullible these people would be until it was too late (myself included)
3. the government has wanted a way to get out of Brexit, hence the 2 years of not doing too much to try and get a deal, but continues to fight against an increasingly small right wing cult and is also hampered by a population which isn't bothered enough to shoot down these views.

The referendum in 2016 was only ever advisory - it doesnt need to be implemented

[A11M11]

If at the end of the process, we have a free trade deal and customs union that's good enough for me in the current circumstances.

There is little to dispute with that were it to be the end game of the E.U. but it's not.
Whether you care to see it or accept it there is enough evidence to prove that elements in the hierachy of the E.U are in favour of Political control and a greater union. They want to take control of the continent into their hands and whether you feel that this can be refuted , well , we have had no end of Prime ministers that have come back from Brussels having failed, trying to change things or have got a piecemeal agreement that the E.U have subsequently created a work around to circumvent.
The whole subject has been hi jacked into a financial argument when for a lot of people it was about removing ourselves from the tentacles of this entity. I do not like the way that Europe is being dragged into an all prevailing one centralised state. I am old if you like , old enough to remember the aftermath of the last time an all powerful state tried to take complete control . It wasn't nice ., There was persecution of people that did not fit into the grand scheme and you think we have poverty now ? Try London and the other great cities of the UK in the 1940's and 50's.
I was bought up on Seaton Market on Hampstead road near Tottenham Court Road I have no problem with anyone that comes here and pays their dues but I can remember the way that the post war immigrant and especially Jews were treated and I can see that happening again as resentment grows . In those days it was beatings in the street whereas now instead of fists sticks and bottles it's knives and soon guns will be more prevalent. . Rob argues that the E.U brings harmony and I say that it is creating a more divisive Europe .
Like Palestine you cannot implant a new population on an old one , it doesn't work .

[Gunner Rob]

If at the end of the process, we have a free trade deal and customs union that's good enough for me in the current circumstances.

There is little to dispute with that were it to be the end game of the E.U. but it's not.
Whether you care to see it or accept it there is enough evidence to prove that elements in the hierachy of the E.U are in favour of Political control and a greater union. They want to take control of the continent into their hands and whether you feel that this can be refuted , well , we have had no end of Prime ministers that have come back from Brussels having failed, trying to change things or have got a piecemeal agreement that the E.U have subsequently created a work around to circumvent.
The whole subject has been hi jacked into a financial argument when for a lot of people it was about removing ourselves from the tentacles of this entity. I do not like the way that Europe is being dragged into an all prevailing one centralised state. I am old if you like , old enough to remember the aftermath of the last time an all powerful state tried to take complete control . It wasn't nice ., There was persecution of people that did not fit into the grand scheme and you think we have poverty now ? Try London and the other great cities of the UK in the 1940's and 50's.
I was bought up on Seaton Market on Hampstead road near Tottenham Court Road I have no problem with anyone that comes here and pays their dues but I can remember the way that the post war immigrant and especially Jews were treated and I can see that happening again as resentment grows . In those days it was beatings in the street whereas now instead of fists sticks and bottles it's knives and soon guns will be more prevalent. . Rob argues that the E.U brings harmony and I say that it is creating a more divisive Europe .
Like Palestine you cannot implant a new population on an old one , it doesn't work .

I think it is very unlikely that the EU will evolve into a super state, but who knows if we leave ?
certainly we would have continued our influence by remaining inside the EU - now we will just have to accept being dicatated to by them.

you talk about poverty which is laughable when you say you want Brexit!
no there is not great poverty at the moment in the UK like in the earlier parts of the 20th century. BUT Brexit has the potential to once again great poverty.

and then you go on about a more divisive Europe! Unbelievable.
the only divisions I have seen have come about since 2016. London has always been a great melting pot of nations, but to be honest up until 2016 and even now I would argue that London is a very integrated city. To say implanting a new population doesnt work is frankly not true. London is proof of that.

[nut flush gooner]

so nutflush - did you attend the peoples vote march a couple of weeks ago ?

No I didn't because firstly I had other plans, and secondly the only referendum that should take place now is on the type of brexit we negotiate. Theresa May has made a complete pigs ear out of it so far so anything she puts on the table now, should be scrutinised by the people.

I am also not happy marching alongside Marxists or left wing labour supporters.

If we just have another vote on membership, could you imagine the liberties the Europeans would take if we voted to remain.

I have always been a Eurosceptic, but my position on Brexit was formed more by the damage leaving the EU would do to our economy than anything else. Bit of a better the devil you know type approach if you like, but there is circumstantial proof, that so far things are not going well for our economy. The discussion about immigration only comes up with people who don't know better, and of course those who have more extremist views.

If at the end of the process, we have a free trade deal and customs union that's good enough for me in the current circumstances.

1. there won't be another referendum if people like yourself are apathetic
2. all 3 main political parties were represented on the march - it certainly wasn't full of stereotypical left wingers
3. the other members of the EU will take far more liberties with us if we leave than if we were to remain
4. as you are no doubt aware no deal that is put forward is better than we have now - to accept otherwise is pretty defeatist


as far as I can see it Brexit has happened and is happening because:

1. enough of the country bought into the lies and propaganda from the rich right wing elite that want it
2. not enough of the country realised how gullible these people would be until it was too late (myself included)
3. the government has wanted a way to get out of Brexit, hence the 2 years of not doing too much to try and get a deal, but continues to fight against an increasingly small right wing cult and is also hampered by a population which isn't bothered enough to shoot down these views.

The referendum in 2016 was only ever advisory - it doesnt need to be implemented

Rob, I want what is fair given what has happened so far. I said that I wanted a specific type of referendum that is not being apathetic. Having a customs union and free trade would be as good as it could possibly get without jeopardising jobs, it would allow us to go off an do deals anywhere else in the world too.

Given that I dug you out of the mire against Herds rhetoric, I am quite surprised you have even suggested such a thing.

In saying that, this morning the shit has hit the fan for leave sponsor Aaron Banks. He is under scrutiny from the National Crime Agency for receiving donations potentially from Russian sources and then using these funds to help the leave campaign. If that is found out to be true, not only will he do time, but it undermines any credibility vote leave has, forget the battle bus this is a different level.

[A11M11]

Oh to be whiter than white.
Like pretty much every group Remain have wheeled out, the IMF has received funding from the European Commission. Pro-Remain groups which have made referendum interventions have received €160 million from the Commission in the last nine years:

PwC warned leaving would cause a “serious shock” – no kidding, they’re bankrolled by the Commission to the tune of €16 million. LSE say we’re better off Remaining – they certainly are having received €18 million. The WWF says EU membership “benefits our environment” – it benefits theirs by €46 million.

Remain have barely named a group supporting them which hasn’t received huge amounts from the Commission. He who pays the piper…

Michael Portillo: "Members of the Electoral Commission have behaved disgracefully by making it perfectly clear that they are Remain supporters. It is highly disappointing that people in such a responsible position have made their prejudice and bias plain.


Oh to be whiter than white.

[A11M11]

I wonder how the voting would pan out if all Lords and MPs that receive directly or indirectly funds from the E U declared an interest and abstained.

[DB10GOONER]

Hmmm...

Mostly what I'm taking from this thread is the idea that we need to put a maximum limit of 25 words per post on the forum.