The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[Gunner Rob]

Pay attention DB10 ,Ive been calling our politicians corrupt cants too,in fact I think I said incompetent corrupt cants !

Difference is in the Eu there are 28 different sets of corrupt vagina's plus the EU unelected commissioners that we can do nothing about whereas if we leave we have only 1 to deal with and can vote them out in favour of some other incompetent corrupt *word censored* !

As ackney says we are all fucked anyway ,the rich will stay rich and the poor will stay poor and you will stay small whatever happens !


Kidney machines have gonne for rockets and bombs !

its just that the poor will become poorer after Brexit

[Gunner Rob]

What I find astonishing is that a couple of you post about the "corrupt EU politicians" as if your own British politicians were different. I have bad news for you kiddies. ALL politicians everywhere are corrupt self serving selfish lying scum. Every single fucking one of them.

The only real difference Brexit will have (or would have had ) for you is in the EU you are governed by one group of corrupt bastards and out of the EU you will be governed by a different group of corrupt bastards plus you'll all be a little bit worse off financially.

NAIL ON THE HEAD!

the British public were just brainwashed into believing the EU were all evil dictators.

[DB10GOONER]

Pay attention DB10 ,Ive been calling our politicians corrupt cants too,in fact I think I said incompetent corrupt cants !

Difference is in the Eu there are 28 different sets of corrupt vagina's plus the EU unelected commissioners that we can do nothing about whereas if we leave we have only 1 to deal with and can vote them out in favour of some other incompetent corrupt *word censored* !

As ackney says we are all fucked anyway ,the rich will stay rich and the poor will stay poor and you will stay small whatever happens !


Kidney machines have gonne for rockets and bombs !

I've seen photos of you mate - I'll wager my 5'8 over your apparent 5'5".

Speaking of voting out cants - how many Lords have you voted out of the House of Lords?

It's all the same.

I'm no Europhile but the practicality is you are financially better off in rather than out. One main advantage to being in the EU is getting on the tit of trade deals with the US and China through being part of the 2nd biggest economy in the world. Going solo you now compete for those trade deals with a behemoth EU that can make everything you can but do it cheaper from a stronger negotiating position.

[A11M11]

There has been a total lack of understanding of what the EU is. We have been forced into trade negotiations with them , we have been forced to look at the financial markets and their importance to them . We have tried to base our campaign on an attempt to retain close economic ties to them . However we have missed the point that the E.U is not a trading group anymore it is a Political project and you cannot negotiate with a project.
Various members of the 27 are using their position to try and squeeze concessions from the Uk. i.e Spain on uniting with Gibraltar , Ireland on reuniting with the North , Separating Scotland from the U.K because in the eyes of the committed europhiles the EU is an entity and if you want a part of the cake , you have to accept all of it.
Negotiation is not on their agenda and we should have realised and accepted that right at the outset.
I agree that there was no preparation for a no deal when the referendum result came out mainly because those that were our so called leaders did not think it could happen and had no stomach for it either. However that was the day that we should have started on life outside the union ,not trying to draw up a strategy to stay close to it. We should have realised that their was no deal available .
The E.U for their part was quite clear , they had four tenets and if you wanted one you took them all. They have never deviated and they will not. Their life depends on it , if they make a rule for one then everyone will want it and they will fragment and collapse.
Still we carry on hitting our collective heads on a brick wall . It would be better if we had walked at the very beginning because by now there would be agreements in place as both sides had suffered the loss of continuity and business. Both sides are important to each other , this is where business should have taken the lead not politicians.
Politicians are by their very nature poor at flexibility , they have their party line and they toe it. Businesss people learn early to think on their feet and see the possibilities rather than form a circle and protect their existing positions. The process was flawed from the start , if we need an implementation period we should take it but make it quite clear that at it's end , we will go and take our business elsewhere and if the EU countries want to share in our market , let them come and talk .
I saw that Augie who I usually agree with said that he hoped that the UK would not leave .Like many of the 27 they want the security of our armed forces but mainly the money.
It is quite fair to say that as the infrastucture of the poorer E.U nations has improved life in the UK has gone backwards . In my opinion this is because of the imbalance of the financial structure. It is no coincidence that life in Germany and France is in turmoil too and Italy the other long term nett contributor is basically a financial and political basket case . The nett receivers live up to their income and eventually like Greece , Portugal and Spain get into hock with the international banking system and find themselves being governed by the collective rather than their own governments . It's not healthy and it need to be stopped.
We continue to pour money into it whilst in the meantime have a colossal debt , It's time to get our own house in order, time to work out what's best for us . Time to set a course and stick to it outside the European project.

[A11M11]

how many Lords have you voted out of the House of Lords?


Actually you can't they are not voted in but usually appointed by political parties and are there for life.

Nice work if you can get it.

[Gunner Rob]

Pay attention DB10 ,Ive been calling our politicians corrupt cants too,in fact I think I said incompetent corrupt cants !

Difference is in the Eu there are 28 different sets of corrupt vagina's plus the EU unelected commissioners that we can do nothing about whereas if we leave we have only 1 to deal with and can vote them out in favour of some other incompetent corrupt *word censored* !

As ackney says we are all fucked anyway ,the rich will stay rich and the poor will stay poor and you will stay small whatever happens !


Kidney machines have gonne for rockets and bombs !

I've seen photos of you mate - I'll wager my 5'8 over your apparent 5'5".

Speaking of voting out cants - how many Lords have you voted out of the House of Lords?

It's all the same.

I'm no Europhile but the practicality is you are financially better off in rather than out. One main advantage to being in the EU is getting on the tit of trade deals with the US and China through being part of the 2nd biggest economy in the world. Going solo you now compete for those trade deals with a behemoth EU that can make everything you can but do it cheaper from a stronger negotiating position.

on dodgy ground here.
Brexiteers don't like being told the harsh reality of the world

[Jock Gooner]

There has been a total lack of understanding of what the EU is. We have been forced into trade negotiations with them , we have been forced to look at the financial markets and their importance to them . We have tried to base our campaign on an attempt to retain close economic ties to them . However we have missed the point that the E.U is not a trading group anymore it is a Political project and you cannot negotiate with a project.
Various members of the 27 are using their position to try and squeeze concessions from the Uk. i.e Spain on uniting with Gibraltar , Ireland on reuniting with the North , Separating Scotland from the U.K because in the eyes of the committed europhiles the EU is an entity and if you want a part of the cake , you have to accept all of it.
Negotiation is not on their agenda and we should have realised and accepted that right at the outset.
I agree that there was no preparation for a no deal when the referendum result came out mainly because those that were our so called leaders did not think it could happen and had no stomach for it either. However that was the day that we should have started on life outside the union ,not trying to draw up a strategy to stay close to it. We should have realised that their was no deal available .
The E.U for their part was quite clear , they had four tenets and if you wanted one you took them all. They have never deviated and they will not. Their life depends on it , if they make a rule for one then everyone will want it and they will fragment and collapse.
Still we carry on hitting our collective heads on a brick wall . It would be better if we had walked at the very beginning because by now there would be agreements in place as both sides had suffered the loss of continuity and business. Both sides are important to each other , this is where business should have taken the lead not politicians.
Politicians are by their very nature poor at flexibility , they have their party line and they toe it. Businesss people learn early to think on their feet and see the possibilities rather than form a circle and protect their existing positions. The process was flawed from the start , if we need an implementation period we should take it but make it quite clear that at it's end , we will go and take our business elsewhere and if the EU countries want to share in our market , let them come and talk .
I saw that Augie who I usually agree with said that he hoped that the UK would not leave .Like many of the 27 they want the security of our armed forces but mainly the money.
It is quite fair to say that as the infrastucture of the poorer E.U nations has improved life in the UK has gone backwards . In my opinion this is because of the imbalance of the financial structure. It is no coincidence that life in Germany and France is in turmoil too and Italy the other long term nett contributor is basically a financial and political basket case . The nett receivers live up to their income and eventually like Greece , Portugal and Spain get into hock with the international banking system and find themselves being governed by the collective rather than their own governments . It's not healthy and it need to be stopped.
We continue to pour money into it whilst in the meantime have a colossal debt , It's time to get our own house in order, time to work out what's best for us . Time to set a course and stick to it outside the European project.

Don't usually bother reading this thread because it gets on me tits...or rather Rob gets on me tits

However this post is worthy of a "well said sir". The main problem with the EU is that is has become a political project - I'm all for an Economic partnership with our European neighbours but as usual fucking halfwit politicians have hijacked things and turned them to shit.

[DB10GOONER]

how many Lords have you voted out of the House of Lords?


Actually you can't they are not voted in but usually appointed by political parties and are there for life.

Nice work if you can get it.

Exactly. That was my point.

[DB10GOONER]

There has been a total lack of understanding of what the EU is. We have been forced into trade negotiations with them , we have been forced to look at the financial markets and their importance to them . We have tried to base our campaign on an attempt to retain close economic ties to them . However we have missed the point that the E.U is not a trading group anymore it is a Political project and you cannot negotiate with a project.
Various members of the 27 are using their position to try and squeeze concessions from the Uk. i.e Spain on uniting with Gibraltar , Ireland on reuniting with the North , Separating Scotland from the U.K because in the eyes of the committed europhiles the EU is an entity and if you want a part of the cake , you have to accept all of it.
Negotiation is not on their agenda and we should have realised and accepted that right at the outset.
I agree that there was no preparation for a no deal when the referendum result came out mainly because those that were our so called leaders did not think it could happen and had no stomach for it either. However that was the day that we should have started on life outside the union ,not trying to draw up a strategy to stay close to it. We should have realised that their was no deal available .
The E.U for their part was quite clear , they had four tenets and if you wanted one you took them all. They have never deviated and they will not. Their life depends on it , if they make a rule for one then everyone will want it and they will fragment and collapse.
Still we carry on hitting our collective heads on a brick wall . It would be better if we had walked at the very beginning because by now there would be agreements in place as both sides had suffered the loss of continuity and business. Both sides are important to each other , this is where business should have taken the lead not politicians.
Politicians are by their very nature poor at flexibility , they have their party line and they toe it. Businesss people learn early to think on their feet and see the possibilities rather than form a circle and protect their existing positions. The process was flawed from the start , if we need an implementation period we should take it but make it quite clear that at it's end , we will go and take our business elsewhere and if the EU countries want to share in our market , let them come and talk .
I saw that Augie who I usually agree with said that he hoped that the UK would not leave .Like many of the 27 they want the security of our armed forces but mainly the money.
It is quite fair to say that as the infrastucture of the poorer E.U nations has improved life in the UK has gone backwards . In my opinion this is because of the imbalance of the financial structure. It is no coincidence that life in Germany and France is in turmoil too and Italy the other long term nett contributor is basically a financial and political basket case . The nett receivers live up to their income and eventually like Greece , Portugal and Spain get into hock with the international banking system and find themselves being governed by the collective rather than their own governments . It's not healthy and it need to be stopped.
We continue to pour money into it whilst in the meantime have a colossal debt , It's time to get our own house in order, time to work out what's best for us . Time to set a course and stick to it outside the European project.

In amongst all your conspiracy big brother stuff there you have a couple of glaringly incorrect clangers - highlighted in red.

1. The EU certainly is still a trade based group far more than it is a "political project". Believe me it's all about the money for most of them. There is certainly a political element but it is secondary to it being the second biggest economic entity in the world - because of trade.

2. The vast majority of the Irish population do not want a united Ireland. Most of us simply could not give a fuck. The rest? We understand that it would cripple this country. We could never afford to piss away the billions it would cost in security spending. Even our corrupt incompetent politicians know and understand this.

Personally I'd like to see Ireland out of the EU but the practical real world we live in dictates we are financially better off in rather than out. That's just reality - and tough shit really.

[Herd]

The Eu is a Political and Trade Federalist Project whose aim is to expand .
In the past if you wanted to rule other people you got an army and invaded them but so called civilization's have doe away with that (unless you have oil in which case they will come and steal it and fuck your country up and murder your people) .
Instead with the EU they will invade your economy , give you soft loans to begin with and as your economy shrinks and you cant pay ,the EU run banks take over your economy making you sell off any national assets ,rail/utilities/banks etc and in a flash you are ruled by Brussels.

The Eu with 13 worked for me ,but the 28 doesnt ,just wait till we get more in it the scenario will repeat itself !

BTW did anyone notice what May did yesterday , she finally said if there's no deal ,then there will be no Brexit !

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... l-13622944

[AkneyGooner]

The Eu is a Political and Trade Federalist Project whose aim is to expand .
In the past if you wanted to rule other people you got an army and invaded them but so called civilization's have doe away with that (unless you have oil in which case they will come and steal it and fuck your country up and murder your people) .
Instead with the EU they will invade your economy , give you soft loans to begin with and as your economy shrinks and you cant pay ,the EU run banks take over your economy making you sell off any national assets ,rail/utilities/banks etc and in a flash you are ruled by Brussels.

The Eu with 13 worked for me ,but the 28 doesnt ,just wait till we get more in it the scenario will repeat itself !

BTW did anyone notice what May did yesterday , she finally said if there's no deal ,then there will be no Brexit !

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... l-13622944

yeah the economies of the all 28 are just too diffrent, what may work for France, UK and Germany may not work for smaller countries

The former Greek finance minister has some very interesting things to say about how it is run from the central bank point of view, he was an economist first and never a politician until the crisis, so he agreed to take the post to try and fix and make an informed agreement around repaying.



He put what he thought to be a fair a preposal on the table of how much Greece could pay and still be viable, the more powerfull people around the table who represented the central banks/loans and Germany / Brussels, were not interested in anything other than the original payment scheme put in place before he was in post, to which he says must have been a) foolish on part of Greece to take, or b) people were paid of to sign it.

They wanted Greece to keep a debt structure they could never pay, so rather than getting some of it back they would rather bankrupt the country and get next to nothing back as threat to others to not try to reneg favourable deals, it was made pretty clear to him and he recorded the meeting as he recorded every meeting he went to, as he claimed the meetings went on for hours and he could not rememer everything without replaying the tapes when he got back.

Running the numbers on the original deal it was clear to him that it could never have any other outcome except the destruction of the Greek economy and he thinks anyone one with a degree level education in finance could see this clearly.

EDIT:

yanis varoufakis is the guy

He seems to still be in favour of EU i think though, but not in it's current form.

[AkneyGooner]

There has been a total lack of understanding of what the EU is. We have been forced into trade negotiations with them , we have been forced to look at the financial markets and their importance to them . We have tried to base our campaign on an attempt to retain close economic ties to them . However we have missed the point that the E.U is not a trading group anymore it is a Political project and you cannot negotiate with a project.
Various members of the 27 are using their position to try and squeeze concessions from the Uk. i.e Spain on uniting with Gibraltar , Ireland on reuniting with the North , Separating Scotland from the U.K because in the eyes of the committed europhiles the EU is an entity and if you want a part of the cake , you have to accept all of it.
Negotiation is not on their agenda and we should have realised and accepted that right at the outset.
I agree that there was no preparation for a no deal when the referendum result came out mainly because those that were our so called leaders did not think it could happen and had no stomach for it either. However that was the day that we should have started on life outside the union ,not trying to draw up a strategy to stay close to it. We should have realised that their was no deal available .
The E.U for their part was quite clear , they had four tenets and if you wanted one you took them all. They have never deviated and they will not. Their life depends on it , if they make a rule for one then everyone will want it and they will fragment and collapse.
Still we carry on hitting our collective heads on a brick wall . It would be better if we had walked at the very beginning because by now there would be agreements in place as both sides had suffered the loss of continuity and business. Both sides are important to each other , this is where business should have taken the lead not politicians.
Politicians are by their very nature poor at flexibility , they have their party line and they toe it. Businesss people learn early to think on their feet and see the possibilities rather than form a circle and protect their existing positions. The process was flawed from the start , if we need an implementation period we should take it but make it quite clear that at it's end , we will go and take our business elsewhere and if the EU countries want to share in our market , let them come and talk .
I saw that Augie who I usually agree with said that he hoped that the UK would not leave .Like many of the 27 they want the security of our armed forces but mainly the money.
It is quite fair to say that as the infrastucture of the poorer E.U nations has improved life in the UK has gone backwards . In my opinion this is because of the imbalance of the financial structure. It is no coincidence that life in Germany and France is in turmoil too and Italy the other long term nett contributor is basically a financial and political basket case . The nett receivers live up to their income and eventually like Greece , Portugal and Spain get into hock with the international banking system and find themselves being governed by the collective rather than their own governments . It's not healthy and it need to be stopped.
We continue to pour money into it whilst in the meantime have a colossal debt , It's time to get our own house in order, time to work out what's best for us . Time to set a course and stick to it outside the European project.

In amongst all your conspiracy big brother stuff there you have a couple of glaringly incorrect clangers - highlighted in red.

1. The EU certainly is still a trade based group far more than it is a "political project". Believe me it's all about the money for most of them. There is certainly a political element but it is secondary to it being the second biggest economic entity in the world - because of trade.

2. The vast majority of the Irish population do not want a united Ireland. Most of us simply could not give a fuck. The rest? We understand that it would cripple this country. We could never afford to piss away the billions it would cost in security spending. Even our corrupt incompetent politicians know and understand this.

Personally I'd like to see Ireland out of the EU but the practical real world we live in dictates we are financially better off in rather than out. That's just reality - and tough shit really.

I agree, I see more fighting over money than anything else, of course where there is money to fight over there is politics

Telling China you can't do X or you will not be allowed to trade without sanctions in France vs you will not be able to trade without sanctions in Europe is massive. Trade/money drives the politics ?

Nearly every brexit leave argument was around money, and alot that were not contained false information talking about laws that are maybe confirmed by the EU but still are part of other agreements the UK are in (like most of the human rights protections) and the fact that leaving the EU will not stop refugees comming here.

I am still unsure if the long term would be better or worse for the UK finance if we leave or remain, i am pretty sure leaving under a half ass deal will be bad though.

Here is how being in the EU had a direct impact on me: at 17/18 i was not working or in UNI, I signed up to an EU founded education program in my area (hackney, east london) it is a poor area relative to others in London.

This education was free (if you could pass the entry exams) - they paid for Labs and Teachers to train me to get an GNVQ level 3, Comptia A+ certification, and CISCO CCNA certification, these are all technology related, they then got me a junior work placement, i got promoted and after about 5 years moved to a bigger company, I have never been out of work since and I am 33 now.

during the time i was studying, the UK job center kept giving me threats that I was not spending enough time searching for work, because i had spent too many hours studying, I asked them if they had something that similar, they told me they have the "new deal" training scheme, but I had not been OUT OF WORK LONG ENOUGH to join it (as I think it was used by Blair to prevent long term unemployment figures from registering), I asked them if there were any jobs in Technology i could apply for, they told me "you will not get a job in that market, more skilled people than you can't" that was my career advice... work for a supermarket.

The cost of that education was probably around £10k
The Tax i have paid to the UK goverment has to be many times this, in fact it was probably paid back in my first 18 months of work.
the Job seekers allowance i claimed for a about 2 years, also paid back.





in short The small EU program worked for me, where the Massive UK one failed me, there was probably more politics assigned to the UK one


So to me the EU and it Schemes are not ALL bad

This has to be ONE scheme were giving the EU money gives countries back more money in the long term as it was above the local politics of the local (UK/NEW LABOUR) scheme which was about perception as much as helping.

PS i have hated my job ever since, i would have had zero stress working in Tesco, interfering european crunts

PPS: I can't beleive i am posting this shit on a football forum ...... lock it down.

[nut flush gooner]

There has been a total lack of understanding of what the EU is. We have been forced into trade negotiations with them , we have been forced to look at the financial markets and their importance to them .

I think personally a lot of brexiteers (granted not all of them) have a lack of understanding what the EU is. This long winded post just serves to emphasise my point. Our trade negotiations are the consequence of leaving the EU. As a member state, it gives increased bargaining power when dealing with other countries, two notable trade deals that the EU signed recently have been with Japan (2018) and Canada(2014). As a soon to be former member state, we have to go to countries such as Japan and Canada to negotiate tariff free deals.

With regards to the financial markets, London has been a global financial centre for decades a lot of the professional services offered go well beyond the remit of the EU. We are competing with Singapore, New York and Hong Kong for a lot of business. We aren't "forced" to do anything with Financial Services, it's something we are good at. Lloyds of London was formed in 1686 by my recogning that's quite a long time before the idea of the European Union was even conceived.

So what do you suggest we do, abandon one of the most lucrative sectors of our economy in favour of focusing on farming or fishing?

We have tried to base our campaign on an attempt to retain close economic ties to them . However we have missed the point that the E.U is not a trading group anymore it is a Political project and you cannot negotiate with a project.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Whether the EU is a political project or not is irrelevant, it still trades with other countries outside of Europe and non-member states within the continent. One of the functions of Governments is to facilitate trade between companies at an international level, whether it's a block of countries such as the EU or an individual country again doesn't make any difference. What does matter though is where countries as we have seen with the US, start protecting their own interests and starting trade wars. All might be hunky dory now in Washington, but they will pay a heavy price in jobs and inflation if they are not careful.

Various members of the 27 are using their position to try and squeeze concessions from the Uk. i.e Spain on uniting with Gibraltar , Ireland on reuniting with the North , Separating Scotland from the U.K because in the eyes of the committed europhiles the EU is an entity and if you want a part of the cake , you have to accept all of it.
Negotiation is not on their agenda and we should have realised and accepted that right at the outset.
I agree that there was no preparation for a no deal when the referendum result came out mainly because those that were our so called leaders did not think it could happen and had no stomach for it either.

Well this is nothing we didn't expect is it really, what annoys me is brexiteers with their triumphant attitude said the Europeans would bow down to our demands when they made it perfectly clear what was on the table, and there would be no cherry picking.

I also find it astonishing that back seat drivers like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg, constantly tried to undermine the Prime Minister but now the chips are down neither will throw their hats into the ring to challenge for leadership of the Conservative Party/Country. Why is that? Maybe because they know deep down even as hardliners they couldn't come back from Brussels with anything that is close to what they promised pre-referendum and their political careers would be shot to pieces. As I have said before, Rees Mogg is a hypocrite of the highest order.


However that was the day that we should have started on life outside the union ,not trying to draw up a strategy to stay close to it. We should have realised that their was no deal available .
The E.U for their part was quite clear , they had four tenets and if you wanted one you took them all. They have never deviated and they will not. Their life depends on it , if they make a rule for one then everyone will want it and they will fragment and collapse.
Still we carry on hitting our collective heads on a brick wall . It would be better if we had walked at the very beginning because by now there would be agreements in place as both sides had suffered the loss of continuity and business. Both sides are important to each other , this is where business should have taken the lead not politicians.

Politicians are by their very nature poor at flexibility , they have their party line and they toe it. Businesss people learn early to think on their feet and see the possibilities rather than form a circle and protect their existing positions. The process was flawed from the start , if we need an implementation period we should take it but make it quite clear that at it's end , we will go and take our business elsewhere and if the EU countries want to share in our market , let them come and talk .

I think you're just trying to say we should have just jumped off the cliff and left the EU by now, and said fuck the consequences. Well it's not as simple as that, we can't leave the EU until it's been debated and ratified by our Parliament. If we just walk away the Government would be breaking constitutional laws. You talk about democracy and how it doesn't exist at EU level, saying we don't care what happens to our people is as undemocratic as anything the EU do. And for the fifteenth time, the original referendum said we should leave, not whether it should be a hard or soft brexit.

I saw that Augie who I usually agree with said that he hoped that the UK would not leave .Like many of the 27 they want the security of our armed forces but mainly the money.

Your joking right? Our armed forces are a laughing stock. The Russians can park an aircraft carrier down the North Sea fart in our faces and there's nothing militarily we can do. We have 144, 000 trained members of the armed forces. That's hardly going to protect us if someone like Russia decided they wanted to invade Europe. It's the collective strength of NATO and the Mutually Assured Destruction of Nuclear Weapons that keeps the peace. I've seen you spout propaganda about EU armies over the months, but why don't you have a problem with NATO then, in particular, the United States?

It is quite fair to say that as the infrastucture of the poorer E.U nations has improved life in the UK has gone backwards . In my opinion this is because of the imbalance of the financial structure. It is no coincidence that life in Germany and France is in turmoil too and Italy the other long term nett contributor is basically a financial and political basket case . The nett receivers live up to their income and eventually like Greece , Portugal and Spain get into hock with the international banking system and find themselves being governed by the collective rather than their own governments . It's not healthy and it need to be stopped.
We continue to pour money into it whilst in the meantime have a colossal debt , It's time to get our own house in order, time to work out what's best for us . Time to set a course and stick to it outside the European project.

None of this last paragraph makes any sense to me. But I will try and decipher what I think you mean.

Firstly, have you been to France or Germany lately? I don't think either of these countries is really suffering. This link below proves certainly in the case of Germany they are more productive than we are and they are less in debt than we are. So your point about them being a financial basket case is wrong.

One of your final points is about money we pay into the EU, well Germany and France pay more than we do, in the case of Germany they pay in over 20% of the total budget. Yet as I have already pointed out they are a more productive country than the UK, so this so called drain on finances doesn't seem to be an issue in Germany does it.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk

[Gunner Rob]

excellent points there Nutflush !

[A11M11]

https://neonnettle.com/news/5716-angela ... to-the-eu-

Yeah it's all sweetness and light over there .
NOT!