The Gooner Forum

QuartzGooner wrote:SAFCFTM

Yeah it's a kind of "Benefits Class" who do not care for anything except immediate gratifcation and feel no connection with the rest of society.

The looters have to be dealt with hard, I agree.

But that is just lancing a boil.
If you do not tackle the cause of the boil, it can just keep coming back.

Stop handing out council flats to single mums, have a system to help people get into university without it costing the earth, and stop packing people into sink estates where the only local shops are an off licence, a bookies, a pub and a "supermarket" that sells quick fix food instead of decent meals.
And bring back school playing fields and some sort of National Service, whether it is Military or a Civil alternative such as cleaning up the dirty streets.

i agree about the lancing of a boil, I just think that this should be the turning point where people put their foot down and say "this stops now". By that I mean harsh punishment for the looters, but also harsher punishments across the board for misdemeanours, this generation should be the last one to get off lightly when committing offences whether they be stealing or simply causing breach of the peace. I am one of those who was given a smack by my parents when I was growing up if i misbehaved and I dont think there is anything wrong with that kind of a deterrant- if they arent getting it from their parents then when they start getting lippy to people, there should be less comeback if someone puts them on their arse- if they are causing bother that wouldnt lead to a decent punishment through the courts, then the police should have the authority to just put the prick on his arse instead should they so wish, none of this assault shite getting thrown about as soon as someone lays a hand on them- obviously if you actually smash their skulls etc but if someone is being a prick there is nothing wrong with a swift punch in the face. The idea of these kids being untouchable should be destroyed from now on so that they realise there are very real, and painful, consequences for those who show a lack of respect. Sadly this is the only way some of these pricks will learn.

There definitely needs to be a reform of the benefits system- its too easy for someone to just get pregnant, get a flat and never have to work. I still maintain that benefits of certain kinds (ie not for people who genuinely cant work due to disability etc) should be in the form of non transferable vouchers that can only be used for certain products (deals with supermarkets struck so they can excahnge them for the most basic range products or fruit and vegetables, no buying of alcohol or tobacco). Make sure that people can always live even if they dont find work, but make fucking sure that they would rather have a job and therefore actual money and the freedom to purchase whatever they wish. People cant expect "luxury" items like cigarettes, alcohol, betting coupons and xboxes if they dont have a job.

Anyone unemployed who doesnt find a job within a year should be forced to accept any job that comes up and until such time as they get a job, they should be forced to work full time hours in a voluntary capacity- basically you're going to be out all day working, if you get a job then at least you'll get money for it. Make people want to work as opposed to staying on benefits. I'm not personally in favour of military style national service, but making people do voluntary work is definitely a good shout.

Big changes need to be made that show people that they need to earn respect, they will be punished if they dont, and they need to go out and work and contribute to society. This wont happen though because if any party suggested measures such as this they would never win another term in office, which is why we are subjected to a bunch of parties who are as mealy-mouthed and middle of the road as each other. Hell, we cant even get a right wing party now unless you want to vote for a mad bunch of fucking racists who dont have the slightest clue about society or how to genuinely address the problems within it, the conservatives are supposed to be the sensible right wing option who are tough on crime etc and they're as pathetic as labour nowadays.

If ever there was a time for a new political party this is it.

A "Common Sense" party.

Not right or left wing as such, just dedicated to sorting the country out.

Walked down to Ealing Broadway (I live in ealing) to see the damage done by the riots the night before.

Windows all smashed up, burnt bus etc etc.

What bothers me the most is how these *word censored* ruined small family run businesses like florists destroying the owners livelihood and business, *word censored* to the highest order.

On the plus side, just saw a fast 14 year old bolt from the police... apparently Wengers already drawing out his contract.

QuartzGooner wrote:If ever there was a time for a new political party this is it.

A "Common Sense" party.

Not right or left wing as such, just dedicated to sorting the country out.

The problem is Quartz that all of the political parties already define themselves as the party of "common sense".

Indeed, if you walked down the road in london and asked a thousand people how they would sort the problems, you'd get a thousand different answers.

I believe Iran are hoping to send some people over to you to help sort it out because you are iminging on some people's human rights!

Those wacky Iranians.

To answer Quartz's question from earlier I personally know of two black people that have posted on this thread. What difference it makes I'm not too sure. This is an open forum, race has never been an issue before and rightly so.

Seems lazy hole IHH is off in druggy land again so I'll move this back up to Chat temporarily as it is still off-season and it is quite a relevant issue/thread.

Good decent people on the streets. Love the t-shirt the girl is wearing, sums it up perfectly.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/871800-twit ... t-clean-up

And more decent people from the Sikh community.
http://www.sikhsangat.org/2011/08/hundr ... of-london/ .

Oooh, but sorry I mentioned their ethnicity - I must be a racist.

Quartz, can we enrol our own kids for cleaning the dirty streets or are we just further humiliating the disadvantaged? I wonder how many from Eton will be picking up the brushes. You might say no Etonians are on the streets rioting but perhaps that is because they have not been "detached" by society.

Social inequality risks social unrest. Tackle the inequality. You come up with a good suggestion of encouraging disadvantaged children to further education but this is at odds with the rise in tuition fees and the stance on EMA. The gap between richer and poor is growing alarmingly. Pre-1997 one in three children lived in poverty according to European measures and expect those levels to be reached again if not surpassed with rising fuel/food and decreasing social security.

The austerity measures are disproportionately targeting those who can least afford it. You say we need to stop giving housing to single mums. Do we put the new born child and mum in a hostel? The only way to break the cycle of benefits is afford real opportunity. This does not include bin bags and brushes.

I do not excuse any of the rioting that has gone on but if you detach wide sections of society from having a realistic chance to better themselves then what do you expect? These kids have nothing to lose.

Its time Cameron grew a pair, get the Army on the street and put a seven o clock curfew in place for two days, haul any wanker caught out without a bloody good reason of to a holding camp for a few days until they can be fucked into prison for a month. Cancel their state handout for six months aswell.
The return of national service would not be a bad idea either, anybody on the dole longterm could be formed into a new service so that the existing forces would not be watered down by these work-shy wasters

I cant't believe the wife thinks i am right wing

Cockerill's chin wrote:Quartz, can we enrol our own kids for cleaning the dirty streets or are we just further humiliating the disadvantaged? I wonder how many from Eton will be picking up the brushes. You might say no Etonians are on the streets rioting but perhaps that is because they have not been "detached" by society.

Social inequality risks social unrest. Tackle the inequality. You come up with a good suggestion of encouraging disadvantaged children to further education but this is at odds with the rise in tuition fees and the stance on EMA. The gap between richer and poor is growing alarmingly. Pre-1997 one in three children lived in poverty according to European measures and expect those levels to be reached again if not surpassed with rising fuel/food and decreasing social security.

The austerity measures are disproportionately targeting those who can least afford it. You say we need to stop giving housing to single mums. Do we put the new born child and mum in a hostel? The only way to break the cycle of benefits is afford real opportunity. This does not include bin bags and brushes.

I do not excuse any of the rioting that has gone on but if you detach wide sections of society from having a realistic chance to better themselves then what do you expect? These kids have nothing to lose.

But these are exactly the kind of excuses we've been hearing for ages. Sure, the gap between the rich and poor is growing, I appreciate that. The rich are generally a bunch of arseholes too but that's another issue.

What I refuse to believe is that there are no opportunities in Britain today. Everyone gets a free education in the UK to a decent standard, better than in many other countries. Furthermore people can generally stay on to do A-Levels if they wish.

Sure not everyone can afford Uni, but then the same has been the case for a long time. It's only really in the 90s that Uni became "affordable".

Anyone has a realistic chance of bettering themselves if they make the effort to do so. There are countless opportunities for youngsters today but they choose to either not make use of them, or to completely abuse them.

The benefit lifestyle is all too easy, they get to sit indoors all day and get paid for it. Their rent is paid, they pay no taxes.

Like our Mackem friend said, if they overhauled the benefit system to make it less cozy then I bet many of these sponges would suddenly amazingly find employment!

I'm sick of people making excuses for them. The majority of these little cretins aren't poverty stricken, they're just fucking lazy.

Cockerill's chin wrote:
Social inequality risks social unrest. Tackle the inequality. You come up with a good suggestion of encouraging disadvantaged children to further education but this is at odds with the rise in tuition fees and the stance on EMA. The gap between richer and poor is growing alarmingly. Pre-1997 one in three children lived in poverty according to European measures and expect those levels to be reached again if not surpassed with rising fuel/food and decreasing social security.

The austerity measures are disproportionately targeting those who can least afford it. You say we need to stop giving housing to single mums. Do we put the new born child and mum in a hostel? The only way to break the cycle of benefits is afford real opportunity. This does not include bin bags and brushes.

I do not excuse any of the rioting that has gone on but if you detach wide sections of society from having a realistic chance to better themselves then what do you expect? These kids have nothing to lose.

You've made some good points mate but you haven't addressed the real big one -

If these people are so "disadvantaged" why are they only looting electronic goods and sports wear??? I didn't see any footage of people stealing essential food or baby clothes.

And why are they trashing small businesses owned by local people - exactly the sort of businesses that will make communities stronger.

There are many, many problems in this country of ours but they won't be put right until people adopt the same attitude that cleaned up New York & Los Angeles - Zero Tolerance!

It is too easy to make sweeping judgements about recipients of benefits as lazy. Often the motivation to make such generalised stereotype-based discrimination against stigmatized groups fails to hold up to rational judgment and is driven by a need to rationalise inequality. The flames of these judgements are readily fanned by a biased media. We need to rationalise stigmatizing those on benefits to protect our self esteem as "workers" and thus "contributors".

The security of benefits is a difficult blanket to leave behind but that does not mean it is an easy life. Anyone who thinks so is kidding themselves. If you think a child brought up in poverty attending a failing school has a fair opportunity to lift themselves out of the poverty cycle then statistics strongly suggest you are wrong.

If you want people off benefits then inequalities in pay,education, health and housing need to be addressed. It is easier, however, to demonise the lazy little bastards.

Cockerill's chin wrote:It is too easy to make sweeping judgements about recipients of benefits as lazy. Often the motivation to make such generalised stereotype-based discrimination against stigmatized groups fails to hold up to rational judgment and is driven by a need to rationalise inequality. The flames of these judgements are readily fanned by a biased media. We need to rationalise stigmatizing those on benefits to protect our self esteem as "workers" and thus "contributors".

The security of benefits is a difficult blanket to leave behind but that does not mean it is an easy life. Anyone who thinks so is kidding themselves. If you think a child brought up in poverty attending a failing school has a fair opportunity to lift themselves out of the poverty cycle then statistics strongly suggest you are wrong.

If you want people off benefits then inequalities in pay,education, health and housing need to be addressed. It is easier, however, to demonise the lazy little bastards.

Sorry mate but I can't disagree more. I'm not stereotyping every recipient of a benefit in this country. Some of them are deserved.

However, many of them, and indeed I suspect the majority of people in this case, are just lazy little shits. That's the reality of the situation.

These kids dont know the meaning of the word poverty. They all get education, health service, a roof over their heads, and I bet the vast majority of them have material possessions too.

I'm tired of people making excuses for them, I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard oh they live in poverty and they have no prospects and they have every right to be angry.

So what then that's an excuse for the muggings, burglaries, shootings, stabbings, fights, anti social behaviour, graffiti that we get around the UK every single day, predominantly from this age group?

Is that an excuse for the general lack of respect for the law, for the emergency services, for the public, that these youths show all the time?

There are huge numbers of these people who are on benefits because they cannot be bothered to go and get a job, it's as simple as that. And until those people are weeded out, this problem will persist.

Funniest thing I heard last night was a kid in Manchester blaming it on "the VAT rises and everything being too expensive", swiftly followed by a girl in Croydon's interview in today's Metro with the insightful words "it's all to do wiv the Government. The Conservatives innit ? "

Yes, I bet at the forefront of their minds over the past 3 nights were the thoughts

"Isn't inflation becoming a worry? I've been advising that interest rates should go up to tackle the problem for many months now

...as opposed to

"Word's out that we can raid JD Sports and the betting shop without being caught. Fancy it ?"

Austerity measures are going to more firmly entrench both of us in our respective positions as the situation deteriorates.

As for poverty, I disagree because we send children to school and hospitals and allow them a roof that poverty does not exist. I think linking poverty to right to school and healthcare may have been the case in the 1833 Factory Act but time has moved on. A playstation three from ebay does not mean the child has been given opportunity to fulfill potential.

http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/ ... 4Qodkzssxw

I worry sometimes that my writing comes across as pompous because I genuinely don't have a bone of that in my body. I have contributed to articles on childhood poverty and read many superior ones to any I could have written. I mention this not because of any upmanship but to show I feel strongly that we should address inequality or face more of what we have seen in the past week. I cannot excuse the rioting behaviour but I cannot pretend to be blind to societies responsibilty in building the stage.

As for stealing goods rather than food, I think it is unnatural to assume a rioting teenager will go for the fruit apple rather than the apple ipod.