Out of touch

[SteveO 35]

I've spent a few years reading and contributing to discussions on this forum and over time I've changed my opinions on this and that when it comes to Arsenal stuff.

But recently some of the opinions and ideas shouted out on here are so far removed from the views of people I sit with/around; some of the opinions seem completely blinded by personal vendetta; some of the opinions are no more based on fact or reason than pure hatred of our current manager.

I would like to know where people drink before/after the games, because I haven't heard much in the way of anti-Wenger stuff in the pubs I drink in - 12 pins, blackstock, tollingtons, triangle.

So, I am beginning to think that this forum is becoming out of touch with home fans. Maybe this is why there so much shouting on here, but so little action.

Have you seen the big "Forward" billboard that Black Scarf took out facing the Armoury? Did you go to Fulham away last season or Villa at home?

I'll happily meet up with you at an away game somewhere or when one of the complaining sheep give up their season ticket for the umpteenth time this season.......and I will introduce you to a group of people that have been going to Arsenal for between 30 and 50 years, 80%+ of whom want Wenger out.

You can tell them directly how "out of touch" they've become.

[LDB]

Ignoring the fact that he has now managed the chavs i think Andre Villas-Boas would be a good manager for us. Chelsea is a basket case of a club to manage, its owner dictates the style of play they should use ffs. From what i saw and heard of his porto side they were excellent defensively and sharp and purposeful in attack. I'd take a bit of that over here.

[augie]

Richpye (or any of those who defend wenger) can you say that you are happy with the players wenger has signed in recent seasons ? If you are then can you tell me why this team is going backwards if the players are good enough ? For me, if you strip away all the arguments around finances (overpaid players, overpaid manager,not enough investment etc), then it comes back to a manager that cannot judge the quality of a player (thinks they are better than they are), hasnt got a scooby doo about tactics and maybe most importantly cannot motivate his players How many games in recent seasons have we watched our players just stroll around in games that end up costing us points ? Money has indeed played a huge part in the decline of football worldwide but wenger alone has overseen a period in which our players appreciation and respect for our club has been wiped out and this is totally unacceptable for me As I said already, this is purely focusing on issues other than money but for me he should be sacked mainly cos of a total lack of tactical nous and developing a system which allows his players to be overpaid before actually acheiving anything in the game

As regards a managerial replacement I do agree that if some of us are calling for his removal then we should be willing to put forward suggestions as to who we feel should replace him. For me there is a shitload of managers out there at the mo that I would replace him with (rijkard,moyes,van gaal,klopp,loew to name just a few) but as has already been pointed out to you, nobody had heard of wenger over here prior to joining us so the need for the new manager to be recognised by us or to be high profile shouldnt be the main priority here and by the same token potential replacements should not be written off because their profile isnt as high as a manager that used to win trophies for us but who has now badly lost his way.

This fear of the unknown is something that I really cannot comprehend - it indicates a preference for sticking with under-achieving in case a new manager does no better It is absolutely true that there is no guarantee that a new manager manager will do better but shouldnt we always aspire to do better ? For me I would much rather try and go a different route in the hope of improving rather than just accepting being a club that will forever live off the scraps of the big clubs and be the new shammers where we develop players only to sell them on to the really big clubs and as hard as it might be to take, a selling club is what we have become

Finally I would like to agree with what ldb has said about villa boas - he took over a shambles club where the owner has allowed some players to be more powerful than their managers and a team that is at dinosuar status He is bravely tackling that by dropping lumpolard to the bench and refusing to give dogbreath a 2 yr deal in the hope that ridding them of two of those powerful voices will strengthen his position at the club. I have little doubt that if he is given time and backing he will turn them around and will continue to marginalise those older guys but that is all dependent on him being supported 100% by his board. Should they dispense of his services then I would be happy to see him (or ancelloti) installed as our new manager

[Irish Gooner]

Agree with the AVB recommendations.

A young manager getting accustomed to managing in England, with a group of power hungry players and a crazy owner.

And still they will finish above us!

[mcdowell42]

Tactically naive is what big fat sam called wenger on sky or espn a few seasons ago and even though sam is a *word censored* he got that 1 spot on.Hes not going to change so he needs to be changed.It seems we take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

[QuartzGooner]

Some anti-Wenger fans no longer go to games.

But those who do, are also "Arsenal fans", not just anti-Wenger protesters.
So a certain amount of positve energy is invested in supporting the team, no matter how well it does, rather than complaining about the manager.

[hugh jardon]

I'd imagine those who are so disenchanted with Wenger or the club simply stay away from the ground - voting with their feet.

However the support base (and football "fanbase" in general) has expanded so hugely in recent years that the club is still able to sell out virtually every home fixture. So even if 40,000 fans are fed up and refusing to attend home games it goes unnoticed as 60,000 tickets are sold each week.

Then there are supporters such as myself who are not happy with the current situation the club is in but will always attend a few games/renew STs etc each season and would do so even if we got relegated simply beacuse they love going.

Arsenal and football have woken up to marketing, advertising, social networking etc and now exploit every means possible to get people through the turnstiles or become members. The club don't care who they are - anyone is welcome! Thus resulting in a lesser knowledgeable or experienced breed of football fan, easily brainwashed into thinking "Arsene Knows".

Arsenal has become a money obssessed brand. Arsene's financial prudence makes him a vital component in the club's money obsession. The people above him are more interested in profit margins than trophies so his job is very safe whilst the monies roll in and the team continues to "compete" at the top of the table. Very frustrating for the fans.

Every game I go to I see mainly foreign (and some English) fans taking photos and clutching bags from the club shops. The club will welcome these money spending, once in a lifetime day trippers in comparision to someone like me who will attend a few games every season but spend very little in the ground or club shops over the years.

It also astounds me the amount of young men who bring girlfriends with them on a date, these girls will most probably have not a lot of interest in the game or club, but the club won't care - more bums on seats, plus the girls will no doubt expect to be fed and watered once inside the stadium. More revenue.

These types of fake fan will only further deter the stay-aways and traditional supporters from going so it's all a big vicious circle.

I respect people voting with their feet as that's really the only way to register your unhappiness with things. However whilst Arsenal have so many people who aren't really Arsenal supporters filling the stadium the stay-aways will largely go unnoticed.

[stg]

As I said earlier, alot of home fans are AKB c**ts who arrived in 98 and keep Wenger's job safe while pretending we didn't exist before 1996.

So how are we ment to have new fans if they are all labeled AKB c**ts because they have joined after 98? does that make my two two sons AKB c**ts or anybody else who has started coming to the Arsenal since 98 or is that just a huge sweeping generlisation with no actual fact behind it on your part?

Quite simply mate, you won't find me at any Arsenal games from now on. Today was my last game, Wenger can go fuck himself, preferably with a stick of dynamite......

So you are giving up going to Arsenal home games after a game where we were unlucky not to win but a game that shows how hard the PL is to play in.

The stadium's full of tw*ts who vant to vatch Arseeene's preeety fudball.

Passs,pass,pass.....give the ball away...ARE YOU NOT F***ING ENTERTAINED YET

Another sweeping generalisation

AKBs are the scum of the earth, they keep Wenger's job safe which in turn allows him to kill the club, so they're c**ts. You can see it either when you're at the bowl or on TV when a corner is being taken, so many fans you see are clearly not died in the wool Gooners, half of them don't even know the songs properly. I remember when Arteta took a corner against a team I can't recall, and this tarquin in the background smiled as he joined in with the "Arsenal, Arsenal" drone. c**ts the lot of them

So please explaine how these new supporters are ment to become so called died in the wool supporters if theyare not allowed to be at games?

6 years without a trophy Fact
Ambition only to finish 4th Fact
Best players leave every summer Fact
Sell players for huge fees buy cheap Fact
Pay shit players massive wages Fact
Charge highest ticket prices in the world Fact

Its you who are out of touch mate

Your first line make's it sound like you are are just here for the trophy's god I hate glory hunting supporters

It's true, when you next go to a game at AG, take a look around you. You will see AKB c**ts everywhere, they sit in silence all game long politely clapping, these are the people that started "supporting" 1998 onwards. I was next to one at United at home in 2008, she started reading some book after about ten minutes of the game. The only time they actually make any noise is when they sing their precious One AW song

Yes everybody in the east and west stands at Highbury belted out songs every minute of every home game. The wings of the Northbank were pritty quiet and the famous clockend was not always a wall of noise. Not everybody sings but that does not mean they do not support the team/club.

I do not know one person who I go to Arsenal with or know who has the view that most are posting on the gooner forum. OK some are not happy about somethings and others are not happy about other things but overall they do not want Wenger out, they do not think Wenger is a idiot or an Overpaid fuckwit etc etc etc so on that basis I would say that the title of this thread is true

[worthing_gooner]

STG I haven't read your post in detail and am not really inclined to get into an argument on this topic, but I have to mention one thing.

You complained about an individual making sweeping statements based on their view of the atmosphere, and then an individual posted that we haven't had a trophy in six years and you to all intents and purposes called them a glory hunter.

That too is a sweeping generalisation.

For this team to have gone from being literally invincible - a 38 game unbeaten season, a phenomenal achievement - to what we see today is criminal.

That unbeaten team would have been a side any player in the world would have loved to play for. As it happens, we lost all of those players.

That can only be through mismanagement.

[SteveO 35]

I'd imagine those who are so disenchanted with Wenger or the club simply stay away from the ground - voting with their feet.

However the support base (and football "fanbase" in general) has expanded so hugely in recent years that the club is still able to sell out virtually every home fixture. So even if 40,000 fans are fed up and refusing to attend home games it goes unnoticed as 60,000 tickets are sold each week.

Then there are supporters such as myself who are not happy with the current situation the club is in but will always attend a few games/renew STs etc each season and would do so even if we got relegated simply beacuse they love going.

Arsenal and football have woken up to marketing, advertising, social networking etc and now exploit every means possible to get people through the turnstiles or become members. The club don't care who they are - anyone is welcome! Thus resulting in a lesser knowledgeable or experienced breed of football fan, easily brainwashed into thinking "Arsene Knows".

Arsenal has become a money obssessed brand. Arsene's financial prudence makes him a vital component in the club's money obsession. The people above him are more interested in profit margins than trophies so his job is very safe whilst the monies roll in and the team continues to "compete" at the top of the table. Very frustrating for the fans.

Every game I go to I see mainly foreign (and some English) fans taking photos and clutching bags from the club shops. The club will welcome these money spending, once in a lifetime day trippers in comparision to someone like me who will attend a few games every season but spend very little in the ground or club shops over the years.

It also astounds me the amount of young men who bring girlfriends with them on a date, these girls will most probably have not a lot of interest in the game or club, but the club won't care - more bums on seats, plus the girls will no doubt expect to be fed and watered once inside the stadium. More revenue.

These types of fake fan will only further deter the stay-aways and traditional supporters from going so it's all a big vicious circle.

I respect people voting with their feet as that's really the only way to register your unhappiness with things. However whilst Arsenal have so many people who aren't really Arsenal supporters filling the stadium the stay-aways will largely go unnoticed.

What a cracking, nail-on-the-head post. I have become one of those fans that you refer to in the final paragraph, as I have a simple belief that if you feel strongly enough about something you should do whatever is available to you as an individual to make a stand. So I've not purchased any home match tickets or spent any money on Arsenal merchandise since the start of the season.

For me its not about the lack of trophies at all - FFS, I was born in the very early 70s and for most of my childhood, Arsenal played awful football, won next to nothing and a run in the UEFA Cup was something to look forward to ! But the club was run by Arsenal people and it was first and foremost a "football club" - one steeped in history and tradition and as many an ex-player has said "there was an Arsenal way of doing things". Thats not nostalgic dross, it's just how it felt as a supporter

When I now look at this football club, I see an executive team consisting of mealy-mouthed corporates piggy-backing the club's recent success, raping supporters for every penny they can, blaming inflation and any other economic factor they can. The final straw for me was the Summer hike in ticket prices coupled with yet another transfer window that proved the business model is predominantly driven by making substantial transfer profits that are then used to repay debt whilst we pursue the ever so exciting property activities that have been the club's priority for 5 years.

Well sorry about that, but I don't support a property company, I support Arsenal. We set ourselves up as a property developer in 2006 and since then it has overtaken the priorities of running a successful football club. It wouldn't matter a jot if they doubled the season ticket prices - the level of investment in the playing squad would remain at the suppressed levels that we've seen in recent years. The pattern has repeated itself for too many years to simply be an accident. That is the way that our property company is being run these days, and there just so happens to be a football club bolted on to the side of it.

When the commercial revenues drop by £25m per annum for finishing outside the top 4, and Gazidis and his expensive marketeer chums have all disappeared over the horizon, and when the business goes back to being football first and property second, and when there's an Executive team that treat supporters as their valued customers rather than their meal ticket.......then I will go back to forking out as much money as I can afford watching the club that has been dear to my heart for over 30 years

[Eboue-Why?]

I said earlier on in this thread that it was generating some excellent, well thought through posts on both sides of the argument and Hugh Jardon has added to it. A great analysis of what Arsenal and maybe footie in general has become over the last 10-15 years.

If the Editors of the mag are reading as usual then may I suggest that there are at least 2 posts in here that should be in the next edition!

[TeeCee]

So you are giving up going to Arsenal home games after a game where we were unlucky not to win but a game that shows how hard the PL is to play in.

This is what I find so infuriating with people who defend Wenger. Do you really think I would make the decision to give up Going to Arsenal altogether on the back of a draw with Wolves?
I am sick to death of seeing Wenger fail to come up with an alternative, a different way of breaking down a team. As I've said previously, we play the same formation and same 'tactics' ( and I use that term very loosely), every single game. When we are crying out for something different, something unpredictable, something creative, we see the same thing every time.....Arshavin and Chamslack, always between the 60th and 70th minute. Our set pieces are atrocious and pretty much no threat whatsoever unless it's a direct free kick when we MAY trouble the keeper.
Everything at Arsenal except RVP and Chezza is stale currently, and stale things get worse the longer you leave them.
I cannot support Wenger one iota any more, I hate the man and believe he is doing genuine harm to the club. I can't return until he has gone.

[franksav63]

So you are giving up going to Arsenal home games after a game where we were unlucky not to win but a game that shows how hard the PL is to play in.

This is what I find so infuriating with people who defend Wenger. Do you really think I would make the decision to give up Going to Arsenal altogether on the back of a draw with Wolves?
I am sick to death of seeing Wenger fail to come up with an alternative, a different way of breaking down a team. As I've said previously, we play the same formation and same 'tactics' ( and I use that term very loosely), every single game. When we are crying out for something different, something unpredictable, something creative, we see the same thing every time.....Arshavin and Chamslack, always between the 60th and 70th minute. Our set pieces are atrocious and pretty much no threat whatsoever unless it's a direct free kick when we MAY trouble the keeper.
Everything at Arsenal except RVP and Chezza is stale currently, and stale things get worse the longer you leave them.
I cannot support Wenger one iota any more, I hate the man and believe he is doing genuine harm to the club. I can't return until he has gone.

Great post, and also 2 cracking ones by Hugh Jardon and SteveO above, I'm now exactly the same boat, I can't stand going over there no longer, with the same old shit being served up, 'we play great football' you're having a laugh, it's predictable shit, save for wonder goals from RVP and we would have drawn quite a few of our games this season, yes TeeCee, it's stale alright and nothing fresh is going to come up on the menu unless that stubborn *word censored* Wenger and this money grabbing board are drummed out.

[frankbutcher]

EVERYONE, PLEASE CHILL OUT.

IN ARSENE WE TRUST.

[franksav63]

EVERYONE, PLEASE CHILL OUT.

IN ARSENE WE TRUST.

*word censored* OFF!!!!