It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
highburyJD wrote:the banking crisis was international,
Blair/Brown were never important enough to cause it
but they did encourage us in the bad direction Thatcher started us on
of course this topic will end badly
but whatever that frank post is pure unadulterated nonsense
highlights:
"why will spending more money suddenly create growth?"
er
because more money spent IS growth.
and anyone who tries to compare a nations economy to an individuals has either not got the faintest grasp of economics
or is a liar
Look JD. I work with Businesses for a living. I advise failing businesses for a living. Just lending a Business more money doesn't guarantee growth. It quite often simply masks a failing business. The UK is a business. We need to get rid of the waste (public sector) and support growth in areas of the economy where investment will yield real results. By cutting costs it makes people get real. People up their game and fill in the gaps left by the job cuts made. By your definition "growth" is throwing money at something. Bullshit!!!!!!!! That's what Labour did with the NHS for years. All our billions got us was swathes of middle-management and worse waiting lists. The same in the military. Billions were wasted on helicopters that couldn't fly or an Aircraft carrier that was too big for purpose.
But the biggest fallacy is that the Coalition are making cuts. They are following the same measures that Labour proposed pre-election. FACT. The deficit is still massive. What we need is more cuts. Too much of this nation is trundling along as if nothing has changed. You really don't know how good we have it compared to the rest of Europe. Low interest rates are insulating us. I really don't understand why you think the Coalition have got it so wrong. When did throwing money at things get anyone anywhere. We are dripping with debt. We need to fucking stop feeling sorry for ourselves!!!!!!!!
frankbutcher wrote:Look JD. I work with Businesses for a living. I advise failing businesses for a living. Just lending a Business more money doesn't guarantee growth. It quite often simply masks a failing business. The UK is a business. We need to get rid of the waste (public sector) and support growth in areas of the economy where investment will yield real results. By cutting costs it makes people get real. People up their game and fill in the gaps left by the job cuts made. By your definition "growth" is throwing money at something. Bullshit!!!!!!!! That's what Labour did with the NHS for years. All our billions got us was swathes of middle-management and worse waiting lists. The same in the military. Billions were wasted on helicopters that couldn't fly or an Aircraft carrier that was too big for purpose.
But the biggest fallacy is that the Coalition are making cuts. They are following the same measures that Labour proposed pre-election. FACT. The deficit is still massive. What we need is more cuts. Too much of this nation is trundling along as if nothing has changed. You really don't know how good we have it compared to the rest of Europe. Low interest rates are insulating us. I really don't understand why you think the Coalition have got it so wrong. When did throwing money at things get anyone anywhere. We are dripping with debt. We need to fucking stop feeling sorry for ourselves!!!!!!!!
I'm sure you have a great understanding of business Frank
but you are totally wrong - the UK is NOT a business it's a country
"we need to get rid of waste (public sector)" is at best meaningless at worst insane - get rid of what schools, hospitals, dustmen, street lights, the police? why is public money by definition wasteful? You've swallowed the BS corporate koolaid. Workers spending their wages contributes to the economy the same whether fireman, drugdealers or hedgefund managers.
frankbutcher wrote:Look JD. I work with Businesses for a living. I advise failing businesses for a living. Just lending a Business more money doesn't guarantee growth. It quite often simply masks a failing business. The UK is a business. We need to get rid of the waste (public sector) and support growth in areas of the economy where investment will yield real results. By cutting costs it makes people get real. People up their game and fill in the gaps left by the job cuts made. By your definition "growth" is throwing money at something. Bullshit!!!!!!!! That's what Labour did with the NHS for years. All our billions got us was swathes of middle-management and worse waiting lists. The same in the military. Billions were wasted on helicopters that couldn't fly or an Aircraft carrier that was too big for purpose.
But the biggest fallacy is that the Coalition are making cuts. They are following the same measures that Labour proposed pre-election. FACT. The deficit is still massive. What we need is more cuts. Too much of this nation is trundling along as if nothing has changed. You really don't know how good we have it compared to the rest of Europe. Low interest rates are insulating us. I really don't understand why you think the Coalition have got it so wrong. When did throwing money at things get anyone anywhere. We are dripping with debt. We need to fucking stop feeling sorry for ourselves!!!!!!!!
I'm sure you have a great understanding of business Frank
but you are totally wrong - the UK is NOT a business it's a country
"we need to get rid of waste (public sector)" is at best meaningless at worst insane - get rid of what schools, hospitals, dustmen, street lights, the police? why is public money by definition wasteful? You've swallowed the BS corporate koolaid. Workers spending their wages contributes to the economy the same whether fireman, drugdealers or hedgefund managers.
THE UK IS A BUSINESS!! It has a balance sheet - assets and liabilities. It trades with other countries and in its own country. As a result it either spends more money in a year than it earns through taxes and trade (a deficit) or it spends less money (a surplus). This is known as a profit and loss statement. I agree that you need people employed and companies trading in order to collect taxes but just by throwing cash at the problem simply increases the level of interest we are paying on our debt (WE OWE BILLIONS TO OTHER COUNTRIES IN DEBT). In regards to the public sector, I refer to the needless waste on quangos and middle-management. I do not refer to front-line services including teachers, doctors, fire and police. The simple fact of life is that we need to keep debt down and benefit from the low interest rates we have as a result. I work with loads of small businesses who bleat on in the press about not being lent money by the banks. They are by and large crap businesses with managers that don't know what they're doing. I'll tell you this as well - a lot of these businesses are run by shysters who have taken all the profit out in the good times, bought a big house and an Aston Martin and put the kids through private school. Now it's gone all tits up they want the banks to bail them out. They can sod off!!!!!!!!!!
JD - I know more about economics in the UK than you ever will.
Ta,
Frank
Last edited by frankbutcher on Tue May 01, 2012 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have to say I am more on Frank's side on this one, though some areas of the state do NEED adding too.
We have a serious deficit. We need to cut it. Or we will go bust.
We have to attract international investment...from those with money, and oil and gas...the Arabs, and Brazilians, Russians, Indians and the Chinese.
We need to invest in transport urgently...the rail system is overcrowded, the border control staff is too sparse.
With another airport, and three new tube lines, we could be very attractive to foreign investment.
Otherwise we will be an Everton...looking back on past achievements and cherishing quaint traditions instead of growing and expanding.
Do not underestimate the chance of military action against Iran either...if they keep up their naval activity in the straits of Hormuz and possible scheme to trade oil outside the USDollar then something will more likely happen than not, regardless of if they make nuclear weapons.
If we're going down the simplistic Thatcherite "the country is like a household budget" routine. Most households have a mortgage and other borrowing to fund a standard of living. UK debt is not large by historical standards.
a country isn't a business, this is key to understanding economics
a businesses employees spend their money elsewhere - a countries citizens generally don't
that alone blows your premise out of the water frank
there's no point in discussing this here
- already you've posted foolish things about what you know others know (how would you know...?)
at least Thatcher knew she was lying when she tried to sell her housekeeping money fallacy
highburyJD wrote:a country isn't a business, this is key to understanding economics
a businesses employees spend their money elsewhere - a countries citizens generally don't
that alone blows your premise out of the water frank
there's no point in discussing this here
- already you've posted foolish things about what you know others know (how would you know...?)
at least Thatcher knew she was lying when she tried to sell her housekeeping money fallacy
No pal. You're so far out of the water you're currently lying on a lilo in the Sahara Desert.
Just like every Lefty pleb, you get bogged down in the detail. "oh.... The UK can't be a business because employees spend their money in the country...." The UK is a business because of the fact that it has a Profit and Loss and a Balance Sheet. The sole reason for us being fucked financially is because the Labour government threw money at every issue and never thought they would need to pick up the tab. In other words they seem to be following your diatribe that employing millions in a bloated public sector can't possibly be wasting it as the money will be spent in the country through wages and taxes. Well that, as we all know is bullshit. The UK will balance the deficit once its balance of trade is sorted. In other words inward investment and exports will make the deficit back up. I'll tell you this too. It's pointless employing millions inthe bloated public sector and collecging wages on it if all that is happening with those taxes is to pay the interest on the billions of pounds of debt we have.
It really isn't difficult JD. Get back to your lilo. Club Tropicana drinks are free... (only in your world)
Ive got my political views but i cant be bothered to discuss or debate them here but the below quote did make me laugh
frankbutcher wrote:JD - I know more about economics in the UK than you ever will.
How do you know how much he knows? Talk about blowing your own trumpet!!!! (something Jayson has tried once or twice i think )Its called differing opinions if there was any FACT there would be no need for political parties
no point in arguing with you
you're starting point is a fallacy you seem to hold like a religious conviction
here's a simple example
I give all my staff an unannounced bonus of £100
what does that do?
I give everyone in my country £100
what does that do?
A country isn't even anywhere near to being a company.
The important figure when measuring a countries 'balance sheet' as you so naively expressed it is GDP.
My staff bonus come off sheet once - game over. At best it has a positive effect on efficiency through goodwill (I think the hangover based absenteeism counterbalances that.
My national give away on the other hand can boost the GDP especially if effectively targeted (given to people who will spend it). Those 100s of £100s gets spent at small and large businesses, with sole traders. Their profits are boosted, their inventories have to be renewed, this boosts their suppliers. This is one example of many.
It is not of 'the left' to suggest companies are not countries and comparing them isn't meaningful
it's simple mainstream economics
highburyJD wrote:no point in arguing with you
you're starting point is a fallacy you seem to hold like a religious conviction
here's a simple example
I give all my staff an unannounced bonus of £100
what does that do?
I give everyone in my country £100
what does that do?
A country isn't even anywhere near to being a company.
The important figure when measuring a countries 'balance sheet' as you so naively expressed it is GDP.
My staff bonus come off sheet once - game over. At best it has a positive effect on efficiency through goodwill (I think the hangover based absenteeism counterbalances that.
My national give away on the other hand can boost the GDP especially if effectively targeted (given to people who will spend it). Those 100s of £100s gets spent at small and large businesses, with sole traders. Their profits are boosted, their inventories have to be renewed, this boosts their suppliers. This is one example of many.
It is not of 'the left' to suggest companies are not countries and comparing them isn't meaningful
it's simple mainstream economics
Shown yourself up again mate. GDP is more akin to Turnover, which is a P&L item. GDP is an annual measure. It does not refer to the assets of the country. It refers to production in a year. Secondly, you forget that your "giveaway" does not have the net effect of £100 being spent in the country. Firstly to pay for your giveaway you would need to borrow the ENTIRE amount you are giving away (we have a massive GDP deficit) If the UK government followed your lead, we would need to borrow £100 x 60 million people. And you have to pay interest on that. I reckon over 20 years, you'd end up paying £40 x 60 million just in interest.
And according to you £100 given away ends up coming back to the goverment through taxes etc. You really are dumb aren't you? Your understanding of the economy is so basic it makes Alex Reed look like Einstein.
I'm working on the assumption the business and the country come up with the money in exactly the same way
whether they borrow it or find it down the back of the sofa
thats the nature of a sensible comparison
(amazing and illustrative that in your world companies HAVE money but countries borrow it)
you won't be able to find a single economic model that compares countries and businesses
yes GDP doesn't really work as either turnover or P&L... it's kinda my point
Gross domestic product (GDP) refers to the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period. It's not the same as cashflow, turnover or P&L.
Last edited by highburyJD on Wed May 02, 2012 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
)Its called differing opinions if there was any FACT there would be no need for political parties 