As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Remember when he first came here and Wenger didn't even put him in the squad for half a season because he wanted it to look like he turned him into a PL quality English star instead of him just buying one?
Remember his first league start when he ripped Evra apart and set up a goal against a Man U side we had on the ropes? What did Wenger do???? Oh yeah, he punished that behavior by substituting him and gifting Fergie a win.
After a whole season with his hands on him Wenger has gotten rid of any drive and dribbling ability he was showing at first. Wenger has taught him to play football the right way; tippy tappy sideways passes around the box before just making a pass over the endline that the runner can't reach in order to give the other team a goal kick.
STLgooner89 wrote:Remember when he first came here and Wenger didn't even put him in the squad for half a season because he wanted it to look like he turned him into a PL quality English star instead of him just buying one?
Remember his first league start when he ripped Evra apart and set up a goal against a Man U side we had on the ropes? What did Wenger do???? Oh yeah, he punished that behavior by substituting him and gifting Fergie a win.
After a whole season with his hands on him Wenger has gotten rid of any drive and dribbling ability he was showing at first. Wenger has taught him to play football the right way; tippy tappy sideways passes around the box before just making a pass over the endline that the runner can't reach in order to give the other team a goal kick.
Arsole Wenger The Great lowerer of expectations and ruiner of careers
An old thread I know but Im genuinely concerned about his development. Its been highlighted in one of the online articles today and he seems to have lost that direct threat he had and seems to opt for the pass rather than taking on his man or trying to cut inside and take a shot.
I remember this time last year where he looked full of confidence and especially that game where he tore Manure a new arsehole until the inevitable substitution.
There used to be an air of excitement whenever he got the ball, the boy could play and was such a dangerous runner.
He's been poor this season but he's not long turned 19 so I'm not really worried about his long-term development. Surely things can't continue the way they are for years to come and it's fairly obvious to me that that's what's caused his dip in form and confidence. Having so much pressure on him to deliver when he plays doesn't really help, far from the ideal scenario where you can blood youngsters into a successful team by giving them a couple of substitute appearances and then throwing them a chance in a game you should win.
Instead, even in games like yesterday which should fit into that category, the pressure on the team (due to the general underperformance) is huge and especially on Chamberlain given that Giroud was fucking useless and Gervinho was Gervinho.
northbank123 wrote:He's been poor this season but he's not long turned 19 so I'm not really worried about his long-term development. Surely things can't continue the way they are for years to come and it's fairly obvious to me that that's what's caused his dip in form and confidence. Having so much pressure on him to deliver when he plays doesn't really help, far from the ideal scenario where you can blood youngsters into a successful team by giving them a couple of substitute appearances and then throwing them a chance in a game you should win.
Instead, even in games like yesterday which should fit into that category, the pressure on the team (due to the general underperformance) is huge and especially on Chamberlain given that Giroud was fucking useless and Gervinho was Gervinho.
I agree with you to an extent but its the changes in his overall game that are worrying me. I think the situation at the club is toxic at the moment (especially if you believe the antics between Wenger and Bould) and I wouldnt be surprised if it affected his overall performance.
I guess my biggest fear is that he is being turned into another Wengerball disciple. It was his direct approach that earned him the England call but I feel we've seen a lot less of that in recent times.
northbank123 wrote:He's been poor this season but he's not long turned 19 so I'm not really worried about his long-term development. Surely things can't continue the way they are for years to come and it's fairly obvious to me that that's what's caused his dip in form and confidence. Having so much pressure on him to deliver when he plays doesn't really help, far from the ideal scenario where you can blood youngsters into a successful team by giving them a couple of substitute appearances and then throwing them a chance in a game you should win.
Instead, even in games like yesterday which should fit into that category, the pressure on the team (due to the general underperformance) is huge and especially on Chamberlain given that Giroud was fucking useless and Gervinho was Gervinho.
I agree with you to an extent but its the changes in his overall game that are worrying me. I think the situation at the club is toxic at the moment (especially if you believe the antics between Wenger and Bould) and I wouldnt be surprised if it affected his overall performance.
I guess my biggest fear is that he is being turned into another Wengerball disciple. It was his direct approach that earned him the England call but I feel we've seen a lot less of that in recent times.
I agree that he's lost his directness in the same way (if he ever had any at first) that Gervinho now prefers to stop in possession to allow as many defenders to tackle him as possible before giving it away rather than trying to beat his man as soon as he gets the ball.
But at 19 he's hardly set in his ways, not like he couldn't rediscover that form and adapt to a new system . I don't think any player will prosper under this system/regime and tbh individual players pale into insignificance if Wenger is going to remain for years to come.
Yesterday was sadly his poorest display in an Arsenal shirt yet. His crossing was woeful and has been generally this season and looks like a player with absolutely no confidence in his current ability. For example, rather than taking it past a player he often kicks it against the opponent to gain a throw/corner rather than take the man on. He has fantastic potential and when on form is a brilliant player but he is still in the learning phase of his career and on the basis of performances this season, his areas of weakness haven't been focused on strongly enough by the manager/coaches.
His age has nothing to do with his poor performances......he is getting the natural ability he has, coached out of him by guru wenger just like he has done with any talented players under his control in the padt Wenger's way takes away the ability to be "off the cuff" and programmes all players to be robots in his army
augie wrote:His age has nothing to do with his poor performances......he is getting the natural ability he has, coached out of him by guru wenger just like he has done with any talented players under his control in the padt Wenger's way takes away the ability to be "off the cuff" and programmes all players to be robots in his army
Sadly true
Good player being ruined and rapidly losing confidence
augie wrote:His age has nothing to do with his poor performances......he is getting the natural ability he has, coached out of him by guru wenger Wenger's way takes away the ability to be "off the cuff" and programmes all players to be robots in his army
I think the opposite.
Wenger is too much "Off the cuff" and seems to set his teams out with too little direction, too little delineation of duties and roles to play; instead the players go out on the pitch as if a game is a freestyle training exercise.
Where he seems to "coach it out" of a player is by not encouraging them to be direct, instead they are forever encouraged to look for the short pass.
When the ox started with us he would run at people and that is what I want to see him do because he is good at it.
The same for Theo, before he came to us he would run forward and destroy teams, then the doubts seemed to creep in the longer he was with us.
Now at least he has more confidence, is more direct, and is an improved player as a result of it.
augie wrote:His age has nothing to do with his poor performances......he is getting the natural ability he has, coached out of him by guru wenger Wenger's way takes away the ability to be "off the cuff" and programmes all players to be robots in his army
I think the opposite.
Wenger is too much "Off the cuff" and seems to set his teams out with too little direction, too little delineation of duties and roles to play; instead the players go out on the pitch as if a game is a freestyle training exercise.
Where he seems to "coach it out" of a player is by not encouraging them to be direct, instead they are forever encouraged to look for the short pass.
When the ox started with us he would run at people and that is what I want to see him do because he is good at it.
The same for Theo, before he came to us he would run forward and destroy teams, then the doubts seemed to creep in the longer he was with us.
Now at least he has more confidence, is more direct, and is an improved player as a result of it.
Isnt that a contradiction though quartz.....his regimented tippy tappy shite that he drills into the players takes away the freedom to allow players play any other way
I thought you were suggesting Wenger stifles individual expression on the pitch.
So I said he does anything but that, except he takes it to the other extreme where he neglects organisation and team shape.
Where I think Wenger "Coaches it out of players, young and old" is that he fails to encourage them to be direct if that is appropriate for the situation on the pitch, and he fails to drill the basics of team shape, communication and each man knowing his job.
This has not always been the case, it has crept in since 2008 onwards.
QuartzGooner wrote:I think I misunderstood you original point Augie.
I thought you were suggesting Wenger stifles individual expression on the pitch.
So I said he does anything but that, except he takes it to the other extreme where he neglects organisation and team shape.
Where I think Wenger "Coaches it out of players, young and old" is that he fails to encourage them to be direct if that is appropriate for the situation on the pitch, and he fails to drill the basics of team shape, communication and each man knowing his job.
This has not always been the case, it has crept in since 2008 onwards.
I agree Quartz, even when we get 1 on 1's in the box some of our players don't attempt to take there man on / create enough room for a shot
It can only be the managers mantra, don't waste the ball, play a pass, wait for the perfect opportunity.
Sorry to say but Ox is starting to look like another Wenger mistake, or maybe he is becoming Wengerised, in which case he needs to get as far away from the nutty prof as he can, in order to save his career.
Ox has natural talent but it is being Wengerised out of him. As pointed out above Ox used to run at players, dribble well, and use a burst (like Jack) to get past people. Now he just looks sideways for the tippy tappy option 9 times out of 10.
How long before Jack has his ability and genius Wengerised out of him?
Wenger's way takes away the ability to be "off the cuff" and programmes all players to be robots in his army 
