As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
QuartzGooner wrote:Szczesny has seemed off since his Euro 2012 wobbles for Poland, wonder if he now has self doubt issues so covers them up by being a bit cocky?
Think it was Jamie Redknapp highlighted that too. I would go back a full year - I think the mistake he made at Fulham when he came and flapped at a cross and it fell straight to one of their players to score, combined with the general impact of throwing that match away after cruising for 45 minutes was a bit of a turning point. Before that he was immense and near faultless. Since then I've lost track of the number of times he's hared out of his goal only to either get beaten to the ball and skinned with consummate ease or been caught out of position allowing the striker to score like Swansea and Norwich last year, the number of times he's come and flapped at aerial balls and the number of times he's received a backpass and fucked about too long with the ball at his feet. For me he's not been the same keeper since that time.
I actually thought the same thing with Almunia to a certain degree. Okay, he's just a shit keeper and it was a matter of time before that shone through, but by and large before that 4-4 with Spurs in November 2008 when he was absolutely dreadful he wasn't terrible for us - never a great keeper but fairly consistent and reliable.
I think there may be a valid point about the confidence because if you watch him off crosses into the six-yard box, he's very careful to avoid contact and just goes into the nearest open space (which is generally not where the ball is going) and dangles a fist whilst somebody two yards in front of him gets a head on it. I've always said that how they're dealing with aerial balls is indicative of a keeper's confidence (it certainly has been for me). It's like he's scared of contact all of a sudden, he seems to be intentionally avoiding coming through the attacker to get a fist on the ball.
HOWEVER, I would emphasise that his general antics (Liverpool being a prime example) hardly smack of a man desperately trying to turn his form around.
Re-the mouthing of about other teams, I think he's stopped doing that a while back.
But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
topgoon wrote:But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
Not at all - although I would add that, seeing as a keeper's job never ever ever ever ever changes, coaching has less of an impact on it as you can't exactly play a keeper out of position, coach him to play significantly differently or ask him to play a role he's not suited to. It's highly conceivable that Wenger encourages wide men to be less direct both in training and in a match day, and our rigid formation has proved not to get the best out of our players, wide men especially. But do you really think that Szczesny is being asked to flap at balls and palm everything straight into the dangerzone, or is somehow suffering from us continually playing a lone striker? No, it's completely different.
If we're talking about going backwards slightly or attributing a very small portion of the blame to coaching, fair enough. But it's crazy to accuse somebody of coaching Szczesny out of being a very promising keeper into being a keeper that makes fundamental errors at an alarming rate - how would you even go about doing that I wonder?
topgoon wrote:But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
Not at all - although I would add that, seeing as a keeper's job never ever ever ever ever changes, coaching has less of an impact on it as you can't exactly play a keeper out of position, coach him to play significantly differently or ask him to play a role he's not suited to. It's highly conceivable that Wenger encourages wide men to be less direct both in training and in a match day, and our rigid formation has proved not to get the best out of our players, wide men especially. But do you really think that Szczesny is being asked to flap at balls and palm everything straight into the dangerzone, or is somehow suffering from us continually playing a lone striker? No, it's completely different.
If we're talking about going backwards slightly or attributing a very small portion of the blame to coaching, fair enough. But it's crazy to accuse somebody of coaching Szczesny out of being a very promising keeper into being a keeper that makes fundamental errors at an alarming rate - how would you even go about doing that I wonder?
Surely you can coach positioning, sort a goalies head out when he is going through a sh*t patch which all goalies go through.
Take De Gea, always a good reflex stopper butawful at crosses and set pieces with poor decision making at the start of the season. Yet you would have to admit he is better than he was, surely some degree of coaching has to have gone into that.
We have 3 shit keepers and one goalkeeping coach who is completely blameless
topgoon wrote:But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
Not at all - although I would add that, seeing as a keeper's job never ever ever ever ever changes, coaching has less of an impact on it as you can't exactly play a keeper out of position, coach him to play significantly differently or ask him to play a role he's not suited to. It's highly conceivable that Wenger encourages wide men to be less direct both in training and in a match day, and our rigid formation has proved not to get the best out of our players, wide men especially. But do you really think that Szczesny is being asked to flap at balls and palm everything straight into the dangerzone, or is somehow suffering from us continually playing a lone striker? No, it's completely different.
If we're talking about going backwards slightly or attributing a very small portion of the blame to coaching, fair enough. But it's crazy to accuse somebody of coaching Szczesny out of being a very promising keeper into being a keeper that makes fundamental errors at an alarming rate - how would you even go about doing that I wonder?
Surely you can coach positioning, sort a goalies head out when he is going through a sh*t patch which all goalies go through.
Take De Gea, always a good reflex stopper butawful at crosses and set pieces with poor decision making at the start of the season. Yet you would have to admit he is better than he was, surely some degree of coaching has to have gone into that.
We have 3 shit keepers and one goalkeeping coach who is completely blameless
Absolutely agree that somebody should be trying to help Szczesny turn round his form. May well be his mistakes are being ignored in training - but the prolonged nature of his terrible form and basic nature of his errors suggests to me it's as much if not more of a mental problem than a technical one. But I think that he has to shoulder the bulk of the responsibility to turn things round - nobody can actually get him out of this rut but him, they can only offer a helping hand.
Regarding de Gea, of course you can coach a weakness out of a keeper - you can imagine United had him working on crosses day in day out at training. But I just don't see how you can coach a keeper out of fundamental aspects of his game - as I said, how could you even do that?
I know I'm really giving Szczesny a hard time about both his form and character, but it's mainly because I was such a huge fan of his when he broke into the team. He undoubtedly has ability and looked like he had the dedication and mindset to match. Half of the players at the club are nowhere near good enough full stop and very few have the determined attitude, so to have a player come through in a position we've so badly struggled with past few years was an absolute godsend. So for me that's made it even harder to swallow when he's been consistently shit and moreover I can no longer see any of that dedication.
And I'm probably coming across as pretty arrogant here but as a keeper myself I've always taken particular interest in keepers - not saying it makes me right, it's just something I'm pretty passionate about!
topgoon wrote:But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
Not at all - although I would add that, seeing as a keeper's job never ever ever ever ever changes, coaching has less of an impact on it as you can't exactly play a keeper out of position, coach him to play significantly differently or ask him to play a role he's not suited to. It's highly conceivable that Wenger encourages wide men to be less direct both in training and in a match day, and our rigid formation has proved not to get the best out of our players, wide men especially. But do you really think that Szczesny is being asked to flap at balls and palm everything straight into the dangerzone, or is somehow suffering from us continually playing a lone striker? No, it's completely different.
If we're talking about going backwards slightly or attributing a very small portion of the blame to coaching, fair enough. But it's crazy to accuse somebody of coaching Szczesny out of being a very promising keeper into being a keeper that makes fundamental errors at an alarming rate - how would you even go about doing that I wonder?
Surely you can coach positioning, sort a goalies head out when he is going through a sh*t patch which all goalies go through.
Take De Gea, always a good reflex stopper butawful at crosses and set pieces with poor decision making at the start of the season. Yet you would have to admit he is better than he was, surely some degree of coaching has to have gone into that.
We have 3 shit keepers and one goalkeeping coach who is completely blameless
I don't think the problem is regression more a case of not correcting bad habits they pick up, if the coach identifies a problem then surely he has to work with the player to sort it out. If it proves impossible to remedy then it must be up to him to point this out to the manager....... Who will persevere with said player and continue to support them even though they have turned out to be total crap!
topgoon wrote:But are you honestly saying a player can improve with good coaching but not regress with bad or none existent coaching
Not at all - although I would add that, seeing as a keeper's job never ever ever ever ever changes, coaching has less of an impact on it as you can't exactly play a keeper out of position, coach him to play significantly differently or ask him to play a role he's not suited to. It's highly conceivable that Wenger encourages wide men to be less direct both in training and in a match day, and our rigid formation has proved not to get the best out of our players, wide men especially. But do you really think that Szczesny is being asked to flap at balls and palm everything straight into the dangerzone, or is somehow suffering from us continually playing a lone striker? No, it's completely different.
If we're talking about going backwards slightly or attributing a very small portion of the blame to coaching, fair enough. But it's crazy to accuse somebody of coaching Szczesny out of being a very promising keeper into being a keeper that makes fundamental errors at an alarming rate - how would you even go about doing that I wonder?
Surely you can coach positioning, sort a goalies head out when he is going through a sh*t patch which all goalies go through.
Take De Gea, always a good reflex stopper butawful at crosses and set pieces with poor decision making at the start of the season. Yet you would have to admit he is better than he was, surely some degree of coaching has to have gone into that.
We have 3 shit keepers and one goalkeeping coach who is completely blameless
Absolutely agree that somebody should be trying to help Szczesny turn round his form. May well be his mistakes are being ignored in training - but the prolonged nature of his terrible form and basic nature of his errors suggests to me it's as much if not more of a mental problem than a technical one. But I think that he has to shoulder the bulk of the responsibility to turn things round - nobody can actually get him out of this rut but him, they can only offer a helping hand.
Regarding de Gea, of course you can coach a weakness out of a keeper - you can imagine United had him working on crosses day in day out at training. But I just don't see how you can coach a keeper out of fundamental aspects of his game - as I said, how could you even do that?
I know I'm really giving Szczesny a hard time about both his form and character, but it's mainly because I was such a huge fan of his when he broke into the team. He undoubtedly has ability and looked like he had the dedication and mindset to match. Half of the players at the club are nowhere near good enough full stop and very few have the determined attitude, so to have a player come through in a position we've so badly struggled with past few years was an absolute godsend. So for me that's made it even harder to swallow when he's been consistently shit and moreover I can no longer see any of that dedication.
And I'm probably coming across as pretty arrogant here but as a keeper myself I've always taken particular interest in keepers - not saying it makes me right, it's just something I'm pretty passionate about!
Now I see why we agree on a few aspects about our goalies Northbank....... you used to be one and I up until last year coached u16 goalkeepers.
One area in particular I'm concerned about is the parrying back into play he seems to always go for the ball with strong hands and arms hence it rebounds a long way. Has nobody taught him how to cushion the ball to stop it getting away from him.
A friend of mine put forward the idea that "maybe it's our goalkeeping coach" a couple years back and it really changed my perspective on things.
Szczesny has shown to be a great shot stopper but lately he's making the exact same mistakes as Almunia and Fabianski. Surely not coincidence that our keepers have little-to-no command of their box, and their timing on crosses is poor.
WS' confidence seems shaken lately, too. He was brash and cocky - good qualities in a keeper sometimes - but now he just looks a bit timid.
The fact is, many players even at this level are young and still very trainable. WS is a raw talent, but like many of our talented young players, you have to question if they have the right people to learn from at the club...
Barriecuda wrote:A friend of mine put forward the idea that "maybe it's our goalkeeping coach" a couple years back and it really changed my perspective on things.
Szczesny has shown to be a great shot stopper but lately he's making the exact same mistakes as Almunia and Fabianski. Surely not coincidence that our keepers have little-to-no command of their box, and their timing on crosses is poor.
WS' confidence seems shaken lately, too. He was brash and cocky - good qualities in a keeper sometimes - but now he just looks a bit timid.
The fact is, many players even at this level are young and still very trainable. WS is a raw talent, but like many of our talented young players, you have to question if they have the right people to learn from at the club...
Massively in danger of repeating myself here but I will try and summarise what I've said a bit more succinctly!
If Szczesny had been making the same sort of mistakes ever since coming into the team and essentially these had not been addressed at all I would blame the coaching a lot more.
But seeing as he was brilliant for about 12 months and showed no signs of these weaknesses being a significant problem before suddenly starting to make serious errors on an increasing basis, I attach the blame more to him. Also, the fundamental nature of the errors (pathetic flapping at every cross, palming shots back out into the dangerzone, charging off his line recklessly, fucking around with the ball at his feet) suggest that it's more of a personal problem than a technical one - nobody is coaching him into those habits. Might well be that the coaches could be working on crosses more and perhaps identifying his weaknesses with him for better self-evaluation, but I can't really blame a coach for Szczesny going from being consistent to making basic errors every week.
Also, on a general note I'd have to say it's fairly obvious from our Groundhog seasons and Groundhog defending that we don't evaluate our mistakes after games at all seeing as we make the same ones week in week out.
Also, on a general note I'd have to say it's fairly obvious from our Groundhog seasons and Groundhog defending that we don't evaluate our mistakes after games at all seeing as we make the same ones week in week out.
And we all know who's fault that is......... That will not change until Wengers gone!
Also, on a general note I'd have to say it's fairly obvious from our Groundhog seasons and Groundhog defending that we don't evaluate our mistakes after games at all seeing as we make the same ones week in week out.
And we all know who's fault that is......... That will not change until Wengers gone!
Sometimes if you take a step back and consider just how a club who employs so many qualified experts in the field of coaching and remunerates them all handsomely, most of whose performances are televised or at least analysed on BBC and Sky, can possibly refuse to even consider addressing the same fundamental and costly mistakes that happen game after game, season after season.
"Football is a business" is normally true, but you have to draw a distinction on some issues. No business would be allowed to make the same errors time and time again because they'd simply lead to insolvency.
i strongly dispute the idea that sczesny was ever a good shot stopper. His stats also have never reflected this, in fact quite the opposite.
What he did have was confidence and authority in the penalty. The exact opposite of almunia and fabianski.
He has now lost that confidence and is dropping a lot whilst regressing a bit on the shot stopping ability.
De Gea has always been brilliant at stopping shots. He knows when to use his feet when he can't get down fast enough, Sceznzny should take note of that. De Gea's biggest flaw is what sczenzny used to have as his biggest strength, confidence in the box.
De Gea is slowly getting better, but woj is getting worse, his confidence is low, but some of mistakes he has made i do think a coach should be able to get him over. We will have to wait and see.
If wenger has not lost faith in diaby after all these years, then he'll stick with scenzny. I really wish Wenger would just sell fabianksi and mannone and buy an experienced no1. if Szczeny maintains this poor form. Then if he is good enough he can get his place back. If not, tough luck.
For a keeper who is 6'5 or thereabouts his command of his 6 yard box, let alone further afield is appauling.
When you consider that he can extend his arm, in addition to his height advantage over most forwards, he should be claiming / punching every corner that comes into his territory.
He doesn't, sometimes he hardly jumps at al,l which leaves our hapless "defenders" who are all poor headerers (is that a word ?) to deal with the likes of Carroll, Holt, etc, etc whose game is based purely on physical presence.
What he's doing for their second goal I have no idea. Of course you can't solely blame a keeper for being beaten one-on-one and there were players more at fault than him but Aaron Lennon going through one-on-one running across onto his weaker foot is far from a banker to score. The ball was never running through so why he came haring out I don't know.
Thank fuck we didn't sign Lloris whose decision-making was yet again very good and who showed his quality by coming and tipping away a corner under pressure at the end, would have really stunted the development of our wonderful keeper. I really couldn't do without Ches running out ridiculously and fucking around. Really sound decision to guarantee young unproven players a starting berth for years to come.
