Victims FC back in Europe

[GranadaJoe]

I've not read anybody on here saying that the OB / FA / local authorities weren't culpable. The OB didn't design, control, supervise or maintain the stadium or decide to hold the match there. However, when confronted by a difficult situation, they completely fucked it up.
I went to hundreds of matches in the seventies and eighties and witnessed many, many arsehole police, but also many arsehole fans. I don't think younger fans understand how violent things often were those days (FUCK: I sound like my Dad).

The point of debate seems to be over the role of the Mouser fans. They paint themselves as patient, joke-telling, hymn-singing innocents (I genuinely wonder if younger Mouser fans have even heard of Heysel) and I think it is this propaganda that promotes the backlash. There were many contributing factors in the disaster and the poor behaviour of the fans was one of them.

[DB10GOONER]

So basically you’re the head of your local neighbourhood watch and occasional paid informant or are u in the wheel clamping division of the local authority

I love it in when people scream FACT in bold to re-enforce their Bullshit to dress it as fact

Here is an extract from The Hillsborough Independent Panel which can be found on http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ they know a little more than you and me on this .

Known Facts

153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.

So much for your FACT there Kojak !

Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen , it was entirely foreseeable by anyone who has been to the ground for previous semi’s .
There were only 2 entrances’ to the terraces and they are situated at either end of the terrace with no escape possible to the back .
When the OB made the decision to open the gates and let them in all at once they effectively signed the death warrants of the 96 !

There had been massive crushes in that same corner when we played Liverpool in 1980 and the same the next year when our neighbours played there .
There were many safety recommendations issued then and never acted on by SWFC, or the FA .
The ground didn’t have an updated safety certificate either something the Police ,Sheffield Wednesday and the FA should all shoulder the blame for .

In recent previous years the Police sensibly had a buffer Zone so that approach to the turnstiles could be regulated from the street ,and that ticketless fans couldn’t get near let alone storm the gate.
If they ,if they had followed the same action plan ,it is highly unlikely anyone would have died ,again that’s the Polices fuck up they are in charge of crowd control !
As the tragedy began Police were seen smashing the fingers of the desperate fans climbing the fences ....Nice !

The OB the State and the Tory Press eagerly participated in an active smear campaign to shift all blame onto the mousers which many wrongly bought into and the police led a massive conspiracy to
pervert the course of justice to mask their own and others criminal acts !

You want to bring those responsible to Justice ?

Start with the OB the FA ans SWFC !

Many of the Coppers who were there that day sued the Police for compo and got huge payouts ,far more than any of the victims got .

Fuck me - are you a scouser?

Read that quote again there, brainbox. "There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry". No one said they "conspired" to arrive late. But that is a very different thing to saying they didn't arrive late.

I also don't know where you're getting this idea I'm defending the police. Read my posts. I have always said they were culpable. But that doesn't suit your argument does it? I've also always said so are the mousers that turned up late pissed and ticketless. They are also culpable. They should not have been near the fucking ground. But in your world that's solely the police's fault? Are you sick in the head? Those mouser idiots that turned up late and pissed (and there were fuckloads of them) decided to do that, they chose to do that. But in your world that's the police's fault? They still do it. Even after the tragedy that has come to almost define their club. Is that still the fault of the police?

For all your man on the street ex-hooligan shite you sound like a naive child tbh. You sound typical of the type of mong that gives it the old "I hate all pigs" rubbish and then first thing they do when they get a slap is call the police! And THAT is a FACT!

[Herd]

You hate scousers DB and will blame them for anything ,
I didn't absolve them but the people who had the power to prevent a disaster didn't.

To say that for being late you have to die is purile , the Police are and were supposed in control and they failed , their negligence was by far and away the largest single factor in this and they knew it which is why they covered it up .
But you choose to ignore that because I think deep down u wanted to join them but failed the height requirement .

I don't hate the Police per se I've seen them at football for 40 years and i can tell you south Yorkshire were one of the worst in a very bad pack !

I know that you resort to insults like spastic and mong when people disagree with you but that's all part of your intolerance of anyone or anything that dissents from the DB view and I feel for you little man I really do, but shouting and screaming FACT doesn't make you right !

[SPUDMASHER]

To say that for being late you have to die is purile

Nobody is saying that and I don't think anyone, DB10 included, thinks that for a single minute. However, being late and pissed caused others to die. Those that died were totally innocent supporters that arrived in good time, with tickets, to take their place in the crowd for this massive game. They cannot bear any responsibility for that. Those that turned up late after staying in the local pubs and didn't exercise any common sense whatsoever have to bear some responsibility for the deaths of their fellow supporters. Not all of it, or even a majority, but at least some blame.

They never have, never will and that is not acceptable to any right minded person.

But you choose to ignore that because I think deep down u wanted to join them but failed the height requirement .

This on the other hand is probably FACT.

[Herd]

Fcuk me football fans in having a drink on a semi final day shocker .

IF the Police had had a buffer before the turnstiles like they had done in previous years they wouldn't have died
IF the Police had let people onto the pitch as things got bad they wouldn't have died
IF the club had implemented safety recommendations they wouldn't have died
IF scousers had turned up on time or had a note from their parents to say they why they were late they might have still died !

[augie]

Fcuk me football fans in having a drink on a semi final day shocker .

IF the Police had had a buffer before the turnstiles like they had done in previous years they wouldn't have died
IF the Police had let people onto the pitch as things got bad they wouldn't have died
IF the club had implemented safety recommendations they wouldn't have died
IF scousers had turned up on time or had a note from their parents to say they why they were late they might have still died !

And if the scousers had of used some common sense and turned up on time then this might never have happened From the camera footage outside the ground, it appears that there was gonna be a crush outside if they didn't open the gates - you make split second decisions in the heat of battle and you hope when making this decision that it will dilute the risk of fans getting crushed to death, but in this case all it did was transfer the location of the crush and the victims were those that turned up on time
I love the way that those defending the scousers conveniently ignore the fact that they did the very same thing in the champs league in Athens when they turned up late and charged the turnstiles and managed to get many ticketless fans into the ground. I also love the way that tv footage shows them getting more ticketless fans into Wembley for the 89 cup final which occurred just WEEKS after hillsborough The scouse nation would gain a lot more sympathy if they accepted some portion of responsibility for what happened. They would gain more sympathy if they didn't airbrush the events in heysel where they killed juve fans, as if it never happened

[SPUDMASHER]

Fcuk me football fans in having a drink on a semi final day shocker .

IF the Police had had a buffer before the turnstiles like they had done in previous years they wouldn't have died

Almost certainly true

IF the Police had let people onto the pitch as things got bad they wouldn't have died

Or at worst , less would have died

IF the club had implemented safety recommendations they wouldn't have died

Almost certainly true

IF scousers had turned up on time or had a note from their parents to say they why they were late they might have still died !

But they also might not have and in reality the number would have been much lower. That is the point.

You simply cannot say that not a single scouse supporter contributed in any way to that disaster. Even if you manage to minimise it down to 1% there is still some blame there.

[DB10GOONER]

To say that for being late you have to die is purile ,

Who said that? I certainly didn't and it's typical of your argument to imply that. Pathetic. The rest of your post is just childish insults so I won't bother my arse to address it.

[Bradywasking]

What the fuck did I start here ? Never meant this thread to turn into an inquest. The thread was about the media wanking themselves silly over Liverpool being back in the Champions League, the first complaint on the thread was about a misconstrued definition of the word "victims" in relation to Liverpool FC and their supporters.
I said and will always stand over my belief that as a club and support Liverpool have milked one tragedy while airbrushing a different one. I believe that the police had to take the blame for Hillsborough, but I also firmly believe the placing of blame on the Police was an act of appeasement by the second hearing. I believe that there was an element of hoping that admitting Police failures on the day would lead to the diluting of the campaign and eventually it would go away.
As much as I accept that Police failures were the major contributing factor to Hillsborough the tragedy would not have been as bad or may not have occurred at all if there was an element of good beheaviour and common sense outside the ground on all sides.

[DB10GOONER]

Also, contrary to our very own Cass Pennant wannabe I do not hate scousers, as in people from Liverpool. I've met good ones, I've met shit ones, like in any city.

But I do dislike a lot of supporters of Liverpool football club. But then again ironically I have a couple good mates that are ST holding Mouser fans.

It's the hypocrisy of so many of them I find offensive and dislikable. The constant playing of the blame game, whilst accepting no responibility for their own fans' actions. The airbrushing from their history of the murder (and it was murder) of 39 Italian fans. The FACT they still do the same drunken aggressive, bunking in, robbing tickets, storming the turnstiles type shit away from home even though their own sanctimonious attitude ensures they have an annual media reminder of why they shouldn't be doing that shit.

Of course that isn't every Liverpool fan. But it's a good chunk of them.

[augie]

What the fuck did I start here ? Never meant this thread to turn into an inquest. The thread was about the media wanking themselves silly over Liverpool being back in the Champions League, the first complaint on the thread was about a misconstrued definition of the word "victims" in relation to Liverpool FC and their supporters.
I said and will always stand over my belief that as a club and support Liverpool have milked one tragedy while airbrushing a different one. I believe that the police had to take the blame for Hillsborough, but I also firmly believe the placing of blame on the Police was an act of appeasement by the second hearing. I believe that there was an element of hoping that admitting Police failures on the day would lead to the diluting of the campaign and eventually it would go away.
As much as I accept that Police failures were the major contributing factor to Hillsborough the tragedy would not have been as bad or may not have occurred at all if there was an element of good beheaviour and common sense outside the ground on all sides.

Couldn't agree more, but the problem is that it seems to have backfired badly and has both exonerated the scousers from all responsibility, but also it has encouraged them even more and they are demanding justice left right and centre My kids, kids, kids will all have to suffer the frustrating minutes silence being held at every premiership ground in memory of Hillsborough and their "victimisation" will be forced onto the rest of us

[Herd]

DB u start the insults , then you attempt to take some sort of moral high ground ,'Oh cant be bothered to answer you' then has another swipe, fuck me what a complete self important bell end you are ,but hey at least you have consistent over the years .
I did laugh at the I dont hate scousers bit though , many racists i know say some of my best friend s are black ,u are funny.

Many of the points others and even you have made i agree with and have never absolved them of Heysel or their own part in Hillsborough and their victim mentality ,but there are and there were steps that could have been made by those in charge that would have stopped it from happening had they been competent, from the fa, sheff weds and the ob regardless of people turning up late .
You should look up duty of care !

That the state engaged in a massive media campaign to demonise all scousers ,and that the police took part in a massive conspiracy to pervert the course of justice seems to bother most of u not one jot ,sorry it does me.
Thats not being naive I just expect those who hold office to behave in an honest and transparent way .

[VAVAVOOM 14]

I hate Scousers. ..Deranged, self-important cu*ts.

[VAVAVOOM 14]

Thats not being naive I just expect those who hold office to behave in an honest and transparent way .

Well that really is naive.

[topgoon]

I don't hate scousers, can't stand the f**king accent though. Never met a good looking scouse girl either.

Now mackem accent, Edinburgh accent or certain irish accents on a girl, that works for me everytime.

That was a poorly disguised attempt to get away from the heat in this debate. Might be best to agree to disagree.

The day I become the voice of reason is a scary one.

The only thing I ever want out of those w**kers oop Norf is 3 points.