Anti-Semitism is creeping back (28/1)

[matmos]

There's too much here for me to go over as I'm currently busy with work and I'll clarify a few things later.

But first - on the subject of whether Jews are a race or not. This is the 3rd time having to clarify this for fuck sake, some people just don't bother listening

Race is pseudo-science and Biologists and anthropologists generally don't consider race to be a sound scientific concept. Race is better understood as being a social construct, not a biological one.

The Jews are also considered a race especially in modern Europe, particularly in Nazi Germany where you were a Jew if your grandparents were such and thus forced to wear a star of David, regardless of whether you practiced or not. Indeed people such as Felix Mendelson and Karl Marx were never practising Jews but were considered to be so.

Jews were considered to have physical characteristics that differed from Europeans - i.e. swarthy skin and a prominent nose and eyebrows. Think the 'dirty Jew' propaganda posters of Nazi Germany.

I think the reason why you have to keep repeating it is because people (me included) are struggling to understand why this is relevant to whether something is offensive or not. Please explain why this is so important. Being Jewish, it makes no difference to me whether I am part of a race, a religion or otherwise - thats my decision and noone elses. What I am concerned with is people hating me for what I am (or what they think I am) and subjecting me and others to bigotry & ignorance.

I think I know where you are coming from and am aware of the negative connotations of classing Jews as a race as the nazis did but that doesnt mean its not a form of racism to abuse them. The reason why Jews are a people is that even if you dont practice the religion, you're still Jewish by birth. Black is not a race or a people but its still racist to insult black people.

I get a sense that some people are trying to argue that because Jews are not a race then its ok to be racist against them and thats what concerns me.

[Cus Geezer]

To the poster who argues that supporting Israel is somehow akin to supporting the Holocaust, that is just ridiculous. Your grandfather served his country in the war, and yes, there was Jewish terrorism against theBritish in the years up to 1948...which is regretable. But without lanching into a long history/politics discussion, there were simple reasons for that, and simple reasons as to why Israel now fights terrorists from Gaza etc. It's called war! To equate Israel with Nazis is offensive and absurd, at no point has or is Israel involved in genocide. Please do not rely on the BBC and Guardian for your news on that topic, it is simply mis informed.

well if missing the point was an olympic sport you'd win the gold hands down. Do point out exactly where I've equated supporting Israel with the Holocaust?

My point was that anti-semitism in Britain is at it's historically lowest level and the reactionary right - usually those who have targeted the Jews with their 19th century migration to Britain and their Moselyite scapegoating of Jews in the economic depression of the 30s - seem to be supporting Israel in 2008. Therefore any anti-semitism that emanates from Arsenal matches is Arsenal's problem and cannot be passed off as society's problem.

As for the reference to my grandfather's serving in the war - that was toward the guy who thought it appropriate to label the vast majority of the white working class in Britain as thick racists. If it wasn't for such people in 1940 Hitler would have completed his mission to exterminate Europe's Jews, so perhaps a bit more fucking respect wouldn't go a miss?

As for anything regarding Gaza and Hamas - I think we better stop from straying from the main point of the thread which isn't the Palastinian question, that's another thread entirely thank you very much!

The fact that it is even being debated is pathetic, leave the pc/liberal bollocks away from the football. The holocaust songs is a different matter and can understand some of the viewpoints on here, just think people need to be less precious about things that happen at football.

Well if you wanna use socio-political non-footballing terms like '****' you cannot complain when people start getting socio-political back. If you don't like hearing it stick to football and leave the racial terms to the NF.

I get a sense that some people are trying to argue that because Jews are not a race then its ok to be racist against them and thats what concerns me.

I think the main difference is that a religion is in essence a collection of ideas and in the interests of free speech it is permissible for religion to be ridiculed within reason.

Race on the other hand suggests that there is fundamental biological differences with a particular race which means that they are in some way inferior or have nature traits that are a threat to civilization i.e. the 'cunning' and 'sub-human' Jew - which those of a Nazi persuasion think it permissible to wipe them out as if you were cleansing something from germs.

[Red Gunner]

Palestinians picked Hamas because they wanted action, look at how the map has changed since Zionists have invaded Palestine.





I feel sorry about Holocaust but it shouldn't give you the permission to do whatever you want like illegally occupy someone's land

Peace from Israel













"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" said Rabbi Yaacov Perrin. For some reason, nobody said "Anti-Semitism". Now if it was a Muslim...

[GoonerBen]

bollocks to that last post by khalid_red, thats getting waaay too political for the online gooner!

as far as the thread goes, as iv said on other previous threads, im jewish and have never really worried about the spuds being called the'y' word because as far as im concerned its a nickname used in the name of football banter.

however, seeing the extent of some people's opposition to the use of the word, the extent of debate on this subject and especially gooner ed's article, im gonna stop using it, its not banter if people are offended by it - lets just stick to football

[Red Gunner]

bollocks to that last post by khalid_red, thats getting waaay too political for the online gooner!

Probably For my next post on this thread, I'll post a nice link to a nice site:

www.redtube.com

[GoonerBen]

hell yeah now thats wat im talking about

[DanielD]

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" said Rabbi Yaacov Perrin. For some reason, nobody said "Anti-Semitism". Now if it was a Muslim...

Khalid. This is a view of the most radical person you will ever see or hear from a jewish person and it represent 0.1% of the israeli people views.
On the other hand, the Iranian president is radical as much as the guy with the above quote, but he got elected by most of his people. Not to mention Hamas that still wont ackowledge Israel as a country, and would just call it the Zionist enemy.

[Red Gunner]

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" said Rabbi Yaacov Perrin. For some reason, nobody said "Anti-Semitism". Now if it was a Muslim...

Khalid. This is a view of the most radical person you will ever see or hear from a jewish person and it represent 0.1% of the israeli people views.
On the other hand, the Iranian president is radical as much as the guy with the above quote, but he got elected by most of his people. Not to mention Hamas that still wont ackowledge Israel as a country, and would just call it the Zionist enemy.

1) Iranian president is a Shia. They do this:


2) At least Hamas are not a puppy to anyone and aren't corrupt like Fatah

3) Well Zionists failed to acknowledge Palestine's borders when they invaded after the World War 2. Peace to Jews, the opposite to Zionists

[matmos]

Palestinians picked Hamas because they wanted action, look at how the map has changed since Zionists have invaded Palestine.





I feel sorry about Holocaust but it shouldn't give you the permission to do whatever you want like illegally occupy someone's land

Pretty pictures Khalid but relevant to the discussion, I dont think so. I didnt see the map of palestine that included jordan but you wouldnt want us to have the full picture would you?

So are you saying its ok to hate all jews just because some jews have done bad things. Should we hate all muslims just because of the actions of iraq, syria and iran (not exactly pleasant regimes either). Israel is a democracy but that word does not exist elsewhere in the arab world.

I still say we should not encourage racism at Arsenal with words like ****, Paki, Nigger or towelhead

[Lethal]

singing about the holocost ? thats out of order

complaining about the word '****' ?
get a grip its fukin football not golf

[matmos]

singing about the holocost ? thats out of order

complaining about the word '****' ?
get a grip its fukin football not golf

Why is it ok in fucking football? If i were to call you a *word censored* would you be offended?

[QuartzGooner]

First things first: Arsenal has supported the Maimonides Foundation, a charity that encourages tolerance amongst Jews and Muslim through football. That is to be applauded. No one expects a Jewish-Muslim love in at this stage, but mutual acknowledgment and refrain from hatred is a reasonable goal.

This is my first time on these message boards, it's nuts how people split hairs here! The topic has gone way off the acceptance of racism amongst Gooners and football fans, so here's my final post before we just end up trading tit for tat hate.

To Cus Geezer...you did not equate supporting Israel with being pro Holocaust, I take that back. Yet you list the bombing of the King David Hotel as a reason not to support Israel now. Well, if you are upset over the loss of life and property in that incident it's understandable.

The Jewish paramilitaries did sometimes cross the line in tactics and atrocities against the British forces up to Israeli Independence.

Yet a lot of their campaign was justified, it was military versus military, because even though Britain fought vs Nazis in WW2, the British also turned many Jews who fled Nazi occupied Europe away from living in the relatively safe haven of the British Mandate. These Jews returned to Europe to be murdered.

Definition time: Jews are a nation, comprised of one religion but many different ethnic groupings.

As for Khaled Red, the three main "pillars" of Judaism are G-D, Torah and Israel.
So all Jews are Zionists.
Not neccesarily all Jews support the Israeli government, but not all British people support Gordon Brown!

There is plenty of room for al lJews and Palestinians in the Middle East, and plenty of money to make it happen. If the Arab staes gave their oil money to desert irrigation, sanitaion and transport projects then there would be no need to live in crowded Gaza.
Also, there are a fair few wealthy middle class Palestinians, who own many homes and go to foreign universities as post graduates.
It is not like they are living in Chad or Ethiopia in biblical squalor.

So, if Flamini is suspended, should we use Djourou as defensive midfielder next season?

[RaM]

So do we permit the use of the 'Y' word on the forum?

I've made my views quite clear as have several others from both sides of the debate. Is it time to put it to the vote? Will those that are on the losing side agree to either stop doing it or accept its use?

Time to make a decision I think. Why don't we run a poll for two weeks and go from there?

Spudmasher you can't expect those who want to use the word '****' to stop simply because other think they shouldn't. If people don't like it they should ignore it once their original complaint has been answered.

And surely this thread has gone a bit off topic? The middle east situation (which I must admit I believe is, quite frankly, fucked beyond repair)shouldn't have anything to do with Holocaust chants at matches.

[SPUDMASHER]

Ram, your right this thread has gone way off topic and should come back to whether we use the word or not. I don't expect people to voluntarily stop just because others are offended but I would expect them to stop if an overwhelming majority of the forum members asked for the word to not be used. After all, we are in a democracy here where supposedly majority rules. There's no need to use the word is there? Just like there is no need to say n*gger or p*ki or any of the other obscenities you often hear (although not on this site). Times move on and what was acceptable twenty years ago is not necessarily so today.

[REB]

yes its gone all a bit political
but since we have supporters who are both muslim and jewish then that was always going to happen, as ram said the middle east will always be fcuked up and i have my views which id rather not share on a football forum

as for the holocost songs well that is wrong and we all agree on that
the y** word has been around thof for so long then it will never go away and its got a bit boring with all the ideologies on here pro and against,,

racism is wrong on all fronts and we at arsenal have always been a leader in any anti racism front even when it was nf hanging around the nb etc,, been irish i got stick in england a lot in the 80-90s when all the crap was happening in the north but been called a paddy now doesnt bother me,, how many times have i been slagged on this forum but i take it in jest as its meant ,, and before cus comes on saying its not the same thing then all i will say if i offend when using the y** word then i am sorry but when it comes to spu*s and there use of the word then its hard to stop