London Riots

[QuartzGooner]

So, you mean a National Community Service that could be introduced nationwide during school holidays for kids between 14-15. Although groups like scouts, cadets, guides all do things like this maybe it should make compulsary that all youths should register with one these type of groups for 6-12 months.

Yeah.

School holidays at about age 14 - 15, then a six month stint after leaving school.

[Bradywasking]

Today's Daily Express has a story on its front page about an Olympic Ambassador who is charged with looting..the story is accompanied with a photograph of her with Martin Keown. The article explains that she has met many sports stars and politicans. If I was Martin Keown I would be very unhappy about my picture being on the front of a National Newspaper for a story that has nothing to do with him.

[highburyJD]

So, you mean a National Community Service that could be introduced nationwide during school holidays for kids between 14-15. Although groups like scouts, cadets, guides all do things like this maybe it should make compulsary that all youths should register with one these type of groups for 6-12 months.

Yeah.

School holidays at about age 14 - 15, then a six month stint after leaving school.

this would obviously cost loads of money when at the moment all we are doing is slashing youth budgets rather than adding to them
were would the money come from?
Higher taxes...

[QuartzGooner]

So, you mean a National Community Service that could be introduced nationwide during school holidays for kids between 14-15. Although groups like scouts, cadets, guides all do things like this maybe it should make compulsary that all youths should register with one these type of groups for 6-12 months.

Yeah.

School holidays at about age 14 - 15, then a six month stint after leaving school.

this would obviously cost loads of money when at the moment all we are doing is slashing youth budgets rather than adding to them
were would the money come from?
Higher taxes...

What would be the cost of not doing something to mend the mess society has become?

Will the Olympics make money for the country?
Maybe. Can only know when it has happened.

But maybe the money on the Olympics could have been spent on introducing such National Service schemes?

And I think a tax increase to pay for a National Service scheme would be justified, with the increase on wages over £25,000.

[northbankbren]

Was in eire while the riots really kicked off and only just found the thread hence the late post. Was shocking to watch, and got even more scary when it kicked off in ealing (live just down the road in acton, and was sure it would spread that far, thank god it didnt).

We are now seeing the response, and am surprised by just how many arrests and charges have beem made. The two lads who got 4 years today for just posting on facebook was very surprising. What I hope is that the same sentences are given for those actually involved in the rioting/looting, in fact they should be more severe.

The playing mantis posted about it not being a social inequality issue, and I totally agree. It was greed and opportunism in the most sickening of ways. It wasn’t political; it was the criminal class out on parade. Every little scumbag criminal, from the burglar to the pickpocket it was like all their Christmas’s coming at one. And we as a nation actually got to see just how many of them there are.

Even sadder we also got to see the amount of young people (who for a lot this is the first offence), who are clearly going down the wrong path, and joined in with the mob mentality. I mean 11 and 12 year old kids (its frightening). And then the educated ones too, from decent backgrounds, an Olympic ambassador (who’s doctor parents contacted the police, fair play!!!)

I have to commend the police for the crackdown since the events, but their approach during the riots were totally wrong, clearly their orders were to stand back and let the mob rule, I can guarantee there are an awful lot of pissed off coppers out there rite now, pissed off at the fact they were told not to get involved. And look what it cost the city. Those officers in charge of tactics must be held to account once the rioters are held to account. There is a problem in charges though, to send two to jail for facebook threats for 4 years means, looters/rioters need at least 5. I just can’t see this happening. But it would be the only just thing to do. Which means yes, the girl who stole a bottle of lucozade gets 5 years. Harsh yes, but a message has to be sent. Also I feel anyone who is charged with looting/rioting and is on benefits or those unemployed and on benefits in council housing lose these privileges.

Of course this will bring up the issue of not enough room in the prisons, and can you kick these people out on the streets? In my opinion these are problems easily solved. Send the bloody prisoner out to work. There are plenty of jobs that need doing around London and the rest of the country, the railway system, the roads, building prisons, cleaning the streets and parks, cleaning graffiti, start to try and build industry within the bloody country, and get these fuckers to do it. It’s also a chance of rehabilitation and chance for a future and a new start away from crime. Now this goes for everyone in jail not just those from the riots. They get sent into a specific job, serve their time. Once they have served their sentence, they get to continue in the job with council housing and their benefits returned. If they continue in the career they get put on a proper wage structure based on the minimum wage as a starting point. Commit a crime and back inside.

And please don’t ask where the money will come from, we had no money the week before we went in to Libya, and how much has that cost now?

[highburyJD]

clearly their orders were to stand back and let the mob rule, I can guarantee there are an awful lot of pissed off coppers out there rite now, pissed off at the fact they were told not to get involved. And look what it cost the city. Those officers in charge of tactics must be held to account once the rioters are held to account.

you think the police will still suffer the planned cuts, the Met's tactical command are not idiots, they got what they wanted out of this.

Which means yes, the girl who stole a bottle of lucozade gets 5 years. Harsh yes, but a message has to be sent.

what's the message? My taxes go toward £50k a year babysitting bills and the guarantee she will never be a taxpaying member of society. Boris and Dave smashed windows with the Bullingdon club - this example schtick is just knee-jerk unfairness IMO

Also I feel anyone who is charged with looting/rioting and is on benefits or those unemployed and on benefits in council housing lose these privileges.

do you realistically think that will increase or decrease crime?

Of course this will bring up the issue of not enough room in the prisons, and can you kick these people out on the streets? In my opinion these are problems easily solved. Send the bloody prisoner out to work. There are plenty of jobs that need doing around London and the rest of the country, the railway system, the roads, building prisons, cleaning the streets and parks, cleaning graffiti, start to try and build industry within the bloody country, and get these fuckers to do it. It’s also a chance of rehabilitation and chance for a future and a new start away from crime. Now this goes for everyone in jail not just those from the riots. They get sent into a specific job, serve their time. Once they have served their sentence, they get to continue in the job with council housing and their benefits returned. If they continue in the career they get put on a proper wage structure based on the minimum wage as a starting point. Commit a crime and back inside.

I agree that we need to be far more creative in our sentencing. Incarceration is ridiculously expensive and pretty much ineffective in reducing crime. Not sure if pure slave labour would work but some sort of tiered payments make sense. For fraudsters and embezzlers I would leave themin their jobs but charge them something like 75% tax and put them on curfew for the length of their sentence.

And please don’t ask where the money will come from, we had no money the week before we went in to Libya, and how much has that cost now?

Libya is an investment, they have serious oil reserves, Croydon and Enfield don't.

[northbankbren]

you think the police will still suffer the planned cuts, the Met's tactical command are not idiots, they got what they wanted out of this.

yes i do. they are pushing harder sentencing as the deterrent. Not Better policing. Again give the judges more work the police less. The cuts will be made, and there will be a massive push in the next 6 months for community officers to get extra training, so the olympics goes fine. Trust me they'll have the numbers and use force if anything goes wrong there. Just like they always seem to have sufficient tactics when the anarchists hijack a peace/political protest.


what's the message? My taxes go toward £50k a year babysitting bills and the guarantee she will never be a taxpaying member of society. Boris and Dave smashed windows with the Bullingdon club - this example schtick is just knee-jerk unfairness IMO

Did you not read the part of my post about sending them to work?


do you realistically think that will increase or decrease crime?

On the whole yes. You fuck about you lose your home and lifestyle and go where we tell you, fuck about again...inside.


I agree that we need to be far more creative in our sentencing. Incarceration is ridiculously expensive and pretty much ineffective in reducing crime. Not sure if pure slave labour would work but some sort of tiered payments make sense. For fraudsters and embezzlers I would leave themin their jobs but charge them something like 75% tax and put them on curfew for the length of their sentence.

Slave labour??? LEARNING A TRADE!!!!!! a skill, a new aim in life. Wake up. Think about all the jobs in this country that need to be done and arent due to labour costs, make prisoners do them. Get them out doing free apprenticeships for rail companies, factories, local counscils anywhere in the commnity they can help for free. Its not slave labour, its giving back, and playing your part. And also helping with a new start in life.

Libya is an investment, they have serious oil reserves, Croydon and Enfield don't.

"An investment"....how exactly?

[northbankbren]

they call it double bubble.

quite ritely.

[MK Gould]

If a young working class bloke wants to rip someone off it's visible. It's scary. It's a mugging, it's a riot. Sentence 4 years for posting a message on Facebook..... Do me a favour!

If an already wealthy upper middle class bloke wants to rip someone off then he fiddles his MP expenses, or his taxes. Or maybe moves to Monaco. And don't get me started on Vodafone....! Tax avoidance/evasion loses the UK far more than the clean up operation and lost business caused by the riots - and it's not a one off!

Damage caused? Did the bosses of BP get 4 years for their criminal activity that lead to the deaths and devastating oil leak off the Gulf of Mexico? Compare the environmental impact of the oil leak with the odd burning car/building and smashed windows in the riots....

If the rioters were middle class, middle aged and wore suits then they'd probably have got away with it......

[highburyJD]

I agree 100% with MK Gould
@NorthBanBren
- my opinion is police cuts will be less biting now
I agree that bodies will be found for the Olympics as they are for demonstrations.
- I did read about sending them to work, I commented and agreed to some extent. Even if it happened implementing it will take a lot of time and money. This specific girl would simply be incarcerated to 'send a message'. I believe most of the rioters will appeal and quietly win as sentencing conventions are being ignored. This is all for the media.
- I don't think thats the reality. How will people who have demonstrated a lack of respect for the law react to being made homeless and penniless? I can see only one reaction.
- As I said originally I agree we need more creative, appropriate sentencing and a punishment that gives somebody more of a stake in society is a good idea. It's how it is implemented - it would be easy to argue that forcing somebody to work for free (or even for less than the minimum wage) would be illegal. I like the idea but it has to be sold as rehabilitative not a new chain gang or would be successfully challenged in court.
- the 'investment' is simple. We are addicted to oil. Without it the internationalist interdependent western world grinds to a halt in a matter of months. The Saudi Arabian monarchy is inherently unstable and the main sponsor of anti-western terrorism. The next dozen in line to the throne are in their 60's and 70's. the country is sustained by slavery and western funded/trained extreme military suppression. It's collapse is essentially inevitable and whatever form the new regime takes it is likely to hate us (UK+US) because of how we have behaved in structuring and maintaining that state.

Iraq was the goto solution - but our enforced neoliberal 'democracy' has essentially failed. Again whoever rules that country will likely hate us. Our best hope is keeping the Kurds onside (who we have already sold out once post GulfWar1) the Shia controlled oilfields of the the East are IMO already too far out of our grasp and will end up being effectively Iranian controlled.

An Afghan pipeline system tapping us into central asian energy requires more protection than we can afford to provide. Russia will also flex its muscles in that region as US military power inevitably declines with their retracting economy.

Libya has lots of oil and a relatively secular population. It's plan C. We need a friendly regime somewhere to sell us oil when Saudi plan A collapses (inevitable inside max 10 years IMO) and Iraqi plan B becomes untenable (depends on character of US govt and Iraqi internal security issues). Personally I think the tribal issues in Libya and character of the rebels are a massive unknown.

[MK Gould]

Trouble is that the gap between the rich and poor in this country is getting too big. It's all very well people saying that no-one here is in Indian style poverty or starving like in Sudan etc. But poverty is relative.

Drive in from the M25 to Cockfosters and look at the gated houses. Look at the property prices in Highgate. I earn decent money - well above the national average - but I'm poor compared to the people who live in those houses. And it would take more than a lottery win to bridge the gap.

Today's iPhone 4 is the loaf of bread of the 19th Century!

It's a situation that has led to revolution in some countries over the centuries, but unfortunately the English have never had the balls. Even when we fronted out Charles I we still ended up letting his son back in.....

If you want to gather wealth that doesn't belong to you then you need to do it disguised as war or you need to at least put a tie on..... Capitalism has failed us brothers!

[northbankbren]

Jd I understand where your coming from in regards to oil, but you've highlighted my point.

When it comes to invading other countries, they find the money. But when it comes to running their own country its cut cut cut. How about the goverment got thier own country in order before interfering in others affairs. "Oil" and "fighting terrorism", if the countries internal security and policing systems were up to scrach and sufficient they'd be able to protect the country from home. If the billions spent on the wars had been spent on home security the country would be a far safer place than it is rite now in my opinion.

mk its not capatilism that has failed its the people. While we have a country where more people vote on reality tv shows then they do in elections we will never have what the people actually want. Now voting doesnt always get you what you want, but its the only real power we have. Until the majority start using the massive privilege that voting is we will never have a true representitive. "Im riotin to get me tax back, Dem goverment people dont care bout us".........how many of them do you think actually voted.

Your rite the system seems wrong, where there isnt a single cabinet minister who wasnt born with the silver spoon, where mp's sons and daughters are bred to step in once daddys party lose power. But who's attempting to step in a break the mould. Where are the "young dissolusioned" youth trying to make a difference, by getting into something like politics or community/youth work...the next generation. While the majority are dis-interested with politics and actually doing something to make a change, the cycle will continue. When people cant even be arsed to vote what does that say about people trying to make a change or a difference to their enviroment.....not much.

[RossieGooner]

Jd I understand where your coming from in regards to oil, but you've highlighted my point.

When it comes to invading other countries, they find the money. But when it comes to running their own country its cut cut cut. How about the goverment got thier own country in order before interfering in others affairs. "Oil" and "fighting terrorism", if the countries internal security and policing systems were up to scrach and sufficient they'd be able to protect the country from home. If the billions spent on the wars had been spent on home security the country would be a far safer place than it is rite now in my opinion.

mk its not capatilism that has failed its the people. While we have a country where more people vote on reality tv shows then they do in elections we will never have what the people actually want. Now voting doesnt always get you what you want, but its the only real power we have. Until the majority start using the massive privilege that voting is we will never have a true representitive. "Im riotin to get me tax back, Dem goverment people dont care bout us".........how many of them do you think actually voted.

Your rite the system seems wrong, where there isnt a single cabinet minister who wasnt born with the silver spoon, where mp's sons and daughters are bred to step in once daddys party lose power. But who's attempting to step in a break the mould. Where are the "young dissolusioned" youth trying to make a difference, by getting into something like politics or community/youth work...the next generation. While the majority are dis-interested with politics and actually doing something to make a change, the cycle will continue. When people cant even be arsed to vote what does that say about people trying to make a change or a difference to their enviroment.....not much.

Top post .

[LDB]

Im a big believer in the maxim that people get the government and system of rule that they deserve.

If people pay no attention, demand only gimmicks and short term band-aids to our long term decline (be that social or economic) then that is precisely what the politicians will give them. Why do you think very few people made a fuss about western governments and Labour in particular printing money and passing the buck rather then face the music in 2009? Because people dont think critically about these things, they just wanted the problem brushed under the carpet. Yes you can blame the politicians for being *word censored*, but ultimately its the people who encourage their behaviour by either disinterest or in some cases, active encouragement that should shoulder the blame.

People get what they deserve, the beauty and failure of our system imo.

[MK Gould]

I can understand why people don't vote. The UK electrol system means that by far the majority of votes are completely wasted. And when we did have a chance to change it we showed how thick we really are by sticking with what we already had !

And then when people do vote it tends to be out of self interest. Did anyone really think that Thatcher was good for the country in the 80's....? More like they were scared of what would happen to their taxes if they voted Labour!

And that b*tch was very clever in getting working class people to buy their own houses. Result was that most of us think of ourselves as middle class now and look down our noses at the "workers". Truth is that anyone who works for a company and pays PAYE is working class and should vote as such if they had any sense.

What's happened is that Labour has moved to the right to chase the vote and now very little to choose between the main parties.

If the riots proved anything its that the people have more power than they think. But while we're happy to act like mugs and continue to vote for Old Etonian's and support the Royal family then you are right - we'll get what we deserve.........