Libya

the playing mantis · Post by **the playing mantis** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:30 pm

yeah gaddafi supported terrorists in the past thats why i said he hasnt in the last decade or soenefit. he changed his ways and we got him onside. to everyones benefit.

libya is now fucked. theres a excellent piece in tonights standard, where one of his commanders sums it up perferctly. libya has been a strong independent country for decades under gaddafi. there has been no outside threat from neighbours or the USA or us, and, for that part of the world, its a modern society and peoples lives were relatively comfortable and safe. without gaddafi the country will descend into religiuos extremism, as fundamental religious extremists always fill the power vacuum in such soceites and becoming increasingly influential, and the country will descend into anarchy....look at afghanistan look at iraq.

anyone who says this toppling is a good thing is extremely naive. it will lead to chaos and the country and world will be a lot worse off than it was before and less safe (look at iraq).

Nos89 · Post by **Nos89** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:12 pm

QuartzGooner wrote:
Nos89 wrote:
QuartzGooner wrote:
Nos89 wrote:Look at the state of our country and look at the current state of the middle east, what do they have in common...Tony Blair. After bailing out before the shit hit the fan in the UK, he has done the same in the middle east. Worked with UN as a peace envoy bailed out before shit has hit the fan. The guy is
Blair was appointed Middle East peace envoy but his focus is on Israel-Arab ties.
To be fair to him, he has done some good work there, and built up the start of a workable Palestinian economy in the West Bank, particulary Ramallah, which has contributed to less fighting in the past year.
Isn't that what he he said in his autobiography??
Not read it.
But I know people who have been to Ramallah and seen what has happened there.

There are rumblings on the continent that somehow the British/US arms exporters are instigating the troubles in the middle east via rebel groups. It wouldn't be the first time in history that this has happened. It's a good way to boost our flagging economy.

RossieGooner · Post by **RossieGooner** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:28 am

the playing mantis wrote:yeah gaddafi supported terrorists in the past thats why i said he hasnt in the last decade or soenefit. he changed his ways and we got him onside. to everyones benefit.

libya is now fucked. theres a excellent piece in tonights standard, where one of his commanders sums it up perferctly. libya has been a strong independent country for decades under gaddafi. there has been no outside threat from neighbours or the USA or us, and, for that part of the world, its a modern society and peoples lives were relatively comfortable and safe. without gaddafi the country will descend into religiuos extremism, as fundamental religious extremists always fill the power vacuum in such soceites and becoming increasingly influential, and the country will descend into anarchy....look at afghanistan look at iraq.

anyone who says this toppling is a good thing is extremely naive. it will lead to chaos and the country and world will be a lot worse off than it was before and less safe (look at iraq).

Who says he hasnt continued his ways ? You ???

Did u even watch the shite that he was spewing out on BBC ?

The man has become massively - obscenely, in fact - wealthy off the backs of his own people. PERSONAL CASH assests of $40 BILLION (conservative) have been frozen on him. I would hazard a guess that this is only a drop in the ocean of what he has creamed off the peopl of Libya. The only reason anyone has him "onside" is for sales of arms.

There is no doubt that extremists are dangerous - but this guy and the way he has carried on over the last number of days is as extreme as it gets.. Fighter pilots flying out over the desert to deliver their payload instead of following DIRECT ORDERS to bomb towns and villages that people were exercising a right of protest?!?!

Post by **I Hate Hleb** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:44 am

Don't want to make light of what is a serious situation but......

Boomer probably saw this thread's title and thought it was about female genitalia!!

northbankbren · Post by **northbankbren** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:53 am

I Hate Hleb wrote:Don't want to make light of what is a serious situation but......

Boomer probably saw this thread's title and thought it was about female genitalia!!

Or you saw this thread, read about the gad, and thought time to go to work on the forum.....but first a schmoke....pancake, delete thread, relegate thread schmoke thread

Palestinian Gooner · Post by **Palestinian Gooner** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:31 am

this is so bad news for the americans, arab countries goes democratic = no cheap oil for usa.

storrmin571 · Post by **storrmin571** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:18 am

No they will just launch a "peacekeeping" regime change mission and just take it.

the playing mantis · Post by **the playing mantis** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:32 pm

well id suggest the fact that the west had become a lot more friendly with him would suggest he changed his terrorist ways rossie.........so i guess its not just ME who says this...idiot.

im not condoning him but hes the lesser of two evils.

i suppose you will be delighted when libya descends into religious fundamentalism and chaos with no clear leader, and a breeding ground for suicide bombers et al. regardless of how much money he creamed of the libyan people had a decent standard of life for that part of the world and were in a society that was relatively safe.

still you will be delighted when the infighting after hes deposed goes on for decades with thousands dieing and a massive slip in their standard of life, as you know all the facts...........

the current unrest is mostly due to tribal issues, who knows what these defecting pilots have been told to do...maybe they have an axe to grind with the regime.

ultimately, nation states that are made up of different tribes need strong and often brutal leaders to unite them and keep order (iraq???) without them its chaos and the different groups splinter off and fight each other: iraq, afghanistan, rwanda, sudan, the old yugolslavia etc etc

do some research before talking about things you have no idea about.

long term this is awful news for the people of libya and the west.

what business is it off ours to get involved anyway

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:42 pm

It is a Hobson's choice though.

Should the people there get a chance of living in a democratic capitalist society?

Given that this type of set up is essentially what we ourselves have been for a hundred years, and what the most technologically advanced societies with the highest healthcare standards are set up as?

And given that that the USA has an announced policy of exporting democracy and capitalism?

But yes, a dictatorship by Gaddafi is probably the lesser of two evils when compared to an anarchic mess like the failed states you mention.

The West has cosied up to Gaddafi because they wanted to stop him seeking nuclear weapons and because he has oil and gas, but he remains a piece of work who allegedly last year tried to assassinate Mubarak!

Does the West have the right to interfere in Libya's affairs?

Could not tell you a definitive answer, but Britain has been interfering in or paternalistically guiding (depending on your viewpoint) other countries' affairs for hundreds of years.

RossieGooner · Post by **RossieGooner** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:03 am

the playing mantis wrote:well id suggest the fact that the west had become a lot more friendly with him would suggest he changed his terrorist ways rossie.........so i guess its not just ME who says this...idiot.

im not condoning him but hes the lesser of two evils.

i suppose you will be delighted when libya descends into religious fundamentalism and chaos with no clear leader, and a breeding ground for suicide bombers et al. regardless of how much money he creamed of the libyan people had a decent standard of life for that part of the world and were in a society that was relatively safe.

still you will be delighted when the infighting after hes deposed goes on for decades with thousands dieing and a massive slip in their standard of life, as you know all the facts...........

the current unrest is mostly due to tribal issues, who knows what these defecting pilots have been told to do...maybe they have an axe to grind with the regime.

ultimately, nation states that are made up of different tribes need strong and often brutal leaders to unite them and keep order (iraq???) without them its chaos and the different groups splinter off and fight each other: iraq, afghanistan, rwanda, sudan, the old yugolslavia etc etc

do some research before talking about things you have no idea about.

long term this is awful news for the people of libya and the west.

what business is it off ours to get involved anyway

What on earth makes you call me an idiot ? Because i express an opinion that you disagree with ?

You my friend are surmising - you have no idea what on earth will or will not happen in the country, regardless of the outcome. I am basing my statements on proven facts to do with the country and his known (documented) track record. Its not me that needs to do the research....

The exact reason why the west had "befriended" him in recent times was just as Quartz has stated above - in order to keep tabs on his abuility to develop nuclear or biological weapons. Have you ever heard of the phrase "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" ?

And by the way, suppressing a population is not the solution to combatting terrorism - just ask the people that live to the north of me.

marcengels · Post by **marcengels** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:08 am

RossieGooner wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:well id suggest the fact that the west had become a lot more friendly with him would suggest he changed his terrorist ways rossie.........so i guess its not just ME who says this...idiot.

im not condoning him but hes the lesser of two evils.

i suppose you will be delighted when libya descends into religious fundamentalism and chaos with no clear leader, and a breeding ground for suicide bombers et al. regardless of how much money he creamed of the libyan people had a decent standard of life for that part of the world and were in a society that was relatively safe.

still you will be delighted when the infighting after hes deposed goes on for decades with thousands dieing and a massive slip in their standard of life, as you know all the facts...........

the current unrest is mostly due to tribal issues, who knows what these defecting pilots have been told to do...maybe they have an axe to grind with the regime.

ultimately, nation states that are made up of different tribes need strong and often brutal leaders to unite them and keep order (iraq???) without them its chaos and the different groups splinter off and fight each other: iraq, afghanistan, rwanda, sudan, the old yugolslavia etc etc

do some research before talking about things you have no idea about.

long term this is awful news for the people of libya and the west.

what business is it off ours to get involved anyway
What on earth makes you call me an idiot ? Because i express an opinion that you disagree with ?

You my friend are surmising - you have no idea what on earth will or will not happen in the country, regardless of the outcome. I am basing my statements on proven facts to do with the country and his known (documented) track record. Its not me that needs to do the research....

The exact reason why the west had "befriended" him in recent times was just as Quartz has stated above - in order to keep tabs on his abuility to develop nuclear or biological weapons. Have you ever heard of the phrase "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" ?

And by the way, suppressing a population is not the solution to combatting terrorism - just ask the people that live to the north of me.

Yep, the poor people of Sligo...

RossieGooner · Post by **RossieGooner** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:44 pm

marcengels wrote:
RossieGooner wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:well id suggest the fact that the west had become a lot more friendly with him would suggest he changed his terrorist ways rossie.........so i guess its not just ME who says this...idiot.

im not condoning him but hes the lesser of two evils.

i suppose you will be delighted when libya descends into religious fundamentalism and chaos with no clear leader, and a breeding ground for suicide bombers et al. regardless of how much money he creamed of the libyan people had a decent standard of life for that part of the world and were in a society that was relatively safe.

still you will be delighted when the infighting after hes deposed goes on for decades with thousands dieing and a massive slip in their standard of life, as you know all the facts...........

the current unrest is mostly due to tribal issues, who knows what these defecting pilots have been told to do...maybe they have an axe to grind with the regime.

ultimately, nation states that are made up of different tribes need strong and often brutal leaders to unite them and keep order (iraq???) without them its chaos and the different groups splinter off and fight each other: iraq, afghanistan, rwanda, sudan, the old yugolslavia etc etc

do some research before talking about things you have no idea about.

long term this is awful news for the people of libya and the west.

what business is it off ours to get involved anyway
What on earth makes you call me an idiot ? Because i express an opinion that you disagree with ?

You my friend are surmising - you have no idea what on earth will or will not happen in the country, regardless of the outcome. I am basing my statements on proven facts to do with the country and his known (documented) track record. Its not me that needs to do the research....

The exact reason why the west had "befriended" him in recent times was just as Quartz has stated above - in order to keep tabs on his abuility to develop nuclear or biological weapons. Have you ever heard of the phrase "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" ?

And by the way, suppressing a population is not the solution to combatting terrorism - just ask the people that live to the north of me.
Yep, the poor people of Sligo...

Bergkamp-Genius · Post by **Bergkamp-Genius** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:08 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 418922.stm

It's a bit long but Chomsky is always worth a listen if you want to hear something closer to the truth than all the bullshit we are fed by our devious governments and untrustworthy media...

RoscommonGooner · Post by **RoscommonGooner** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:35 pm

marcengels wrote:
Yep, the poor people of Sligo...

And Leitrim, won't someone think of the Leitrims

the playing mantis · Post by **the playing mantis** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:39 pm

hmmm...surely by proxy the west cosying up to him means hes not sponsoring terroism cos he wouldnt get any aid if he was.

they are after oil/gas but still they wouldnt have been doing it had he not mended his ways to an extent in respect of terrorism.

i shouldnt have called you an idiot but the whole situation and people blithly commenting on his brutality with an all consuming faith and belief in freedom and democracy is annoying.

the greater debate is democracy and capitalism right for all soceities?

patently not.

africa is a mess in many places...democracy has failed with un checked corruption.

certain nations and peoples need strong leaders to keep order as left to there own devices chaos reins, and it seems when islamic nations are concerned this leads to even more resntment to the west and religous zealots gaining popularity whose aim is to destroy the infidel. the west can control these strog men like gaddafi and saddam to an extent...they cannot control fractured societies that seem to occur when western systems, ie democracy and capitalism are foisted upon peoples do not necessarly like the west.