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Gooneroonie
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DB10GOONER
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Jaysus. What a can of worms we've opened here, huh?!! 
Personally, I find that racial abuse can often be in the eye of the beholder. It equates to your own experience of the offending word's usage. For example, many black people find the "N" word very offensive, others use it as a term of endearment, subconciously reclaiming it and thus trying to defuse it as a racial taunt. It seems to be a similar thing with the spuds fans, although I feel that most of those spuds fans using the term "****" are probably not Jewish. Also, it isn't racism as such, Jews are a religious group, not a racial group.
I worked on the sites in London and like my Irish co-workers was called Paddy and Mick regularly. Many of my Irish compatriots found that very offensive; personally, I didn't, but I've a thick outer skin and have often refered to myself as a Mick. The only time I did take offence was when I was called a "dirty murdering Paddy b*stard" after an IRA bomb had gone off in London. When he qualified the word "Paddy" with the other words it became offensive to me.
My thinking on this whole "Y" word thing is if it's being used to taunt someone, or is perceived as such, or if even one person finds it offensive then it is racist (or sectarian) and it should be stopped.
I don't use it to describe tottingshizer fans anymore, prefering "spud" or "scum", which I suppose is still pretty offensive, but hey, I ain't perfect...
As for the fans suing the club? I can't agree with that. That's just wrong, if they go ahead with it. And why aren't they suing spud fans as well - they use the "Y" word more than anyone...
Personally, I find that racial abuse can often be in the eye of the beholder. It equates to your own experience of the offending word's usage. For example, many black people find the "N" word very offensive, others use it as a term of endearment, subconciously reclaiming it and thus trying to defuse it as a racial taunt. It seems to be a similar thing with the spuds fans, although I feel that most of those spuds fans using the term "****" are probably not Jewish. Also, it isn't racism as such, Jews are a religious group, not a racial group.
I worked on the sites in London and like my Irish co-workers was called Paddy and Mick regularly. Many of my Irish compatriots found that very offensive; personally, I didn't, but I've a thick outer skin and have often refered to myself as a Mick. The only time I did take offence was when I was called a "dirty murdering Paddy b*stard" after an IRA bomb had gone off in London. When he qualified the word "Paddy" with the other words it became offensive to me.
My thinking on this whole "Y" word thing is if it's being used to taunt someone, or is perceived as such, or if even one person finds it offensive then it is racist (or sectarian) and it should be stopped.
I don't use it to describe tottingshizer fans anymore, prefering "spud" or "scum", which I suppose is still pretty offensive, but hey, I ain't perfect...
As for the fans suing the club? I can't agree with that. That's just wrong, if they go ahead with it. And why aren't they suing spud fans as well - they use the "Y" word more than anyone...
Good piece DB10Gooner and I also agree with Rebel again - this is a religous issue not a racial one. Maybe, as the lads have said, the irish were all "christened" paddy's and micks and were labelled as ira bombers and that has given us a different viewpoint and has made us more tolerant but I cant get away from the fact that 99% of Gooners would only use the word when related to football and in particular the spurts. While I do agree with a lot of cus's comments I also find us constant way of responding to everyones comments individually and quoting them too as a total pain in the arse - didnt we have a post some time ago requesting that people stop these long winded form of responses ?
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Cus Geezer
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In the case of Jews the race and religion overlap.Technically Jews arent a race - they are a religion just the same as Muslims are.
Hitler and the Nazis did not spare anyone on the basis that they convert to christianity or were non-practising, they were defined as such by the fact that their parents and grandparents were Jews. In an era of the pseudo-sciences of social Darwinism and eugenics Jews were perceived to have particular characteristics that set them apart from white Europeans - a sub species of you will. Their characteristics were considered to be a threat to German civilization (or whatever European nation-state the anti semeitism in question is about) in the same way that one species of animal's natural instincts were a threat to another.
These are the social conditions in which words like '****' come from so yes it is racism.
er....no read the article again they are basing their claim on the Race Relations Act 1976, not the Human Rights Act 1998.But the fact they are using human rights legislation and not race and religious bigotry legislation says to me they are out to make some money out of this (and so are their lawyers)
so in essence as long as white non-jews continue to use it about themselves, I'll shout that word whether Jews like it or not?as long as the shower up the road call use **** army then i shall respond in kind,,
Wow how can I compete with an argument of such depth!!These 3 are not proper Arsenal fans. End of topic.
Because they are not season ticket holders at White Hart Lane and thus would not have any basis for a legal case, for fuck sake that's not rocket science is it?And why aren't they suing spud fans as well - they use the "Y" word more than anyone...
As this started with the right of centre cliche of 'political correctness gone mad', I'll add a right of centre cliche of my own - Arsenal Football Club are not the nanny state. They are not there to educate you on what is and is not a racist term - if you are a grown adult and you have such insufficent life experience to not know that for yourself that's your problem.These guys are taking action against Arsenal Football Club. Arsenal are being held responsible to take action. So why not get the ball rolling and make things plain and simple. And if this get headlines in London and shames sp**s...and then carries on through the rest of football - would you not be happy?
If you went to work and spouted stuff about '****' in front of Jewish co-workers that excuse wouldn't work, you'd be disciplined and dismissed if you persisted. Arsenal Football Club should do exactly the same, if you want to spout racist terms the stewards should throw you out and the club should revoke your membership - then maybe people would start to get the message.
You're missing the point - Arsenal fans are having a go at sp**s fans, not jews. They're not singing about gassing jews or exhibiting any racial superiority over jews or jewsihness.
You can keep stating the obvious until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that we are not talking about people shouting at an individual player "you f**king n*****"
Arsenal starting a debate and providing clear information is not nanny state, it's just common sense. However, if you just want to continue this pointless back and forth then be my guest because you can be sure that it won't change a thing. I know where your coming from and I mostly agree, but we are not talking about society, we are talking about what happens inside a football stadium.
This issue is particularly sensitive so why not put out unequivocal information about it. Or are are you happy for people to live in ignorance so you can take the moral high ground?
In fact, why don't you post something on the site to give specific information in relation to these words and why they are offensive. That would be more positive than what you are doing now.
Arsenal fans spend most of their time obsessing about Arsenal in one way or the other and will read any old shit if it has Arsenal on it, so what better way to reach arsenal fans?
You can keep stating the obvious until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that we are not talking about people shouting at an individual player "you f**king n*****"
Arsenal starting a debate and providing clear information is not nanny state, it's just common sense. However, if you just want to continue this pointless back and forth then be my guest because you can be sure that it won't change a thing. I know where your coming from and I mostly agree, but we are not talking about society, we are talking about what happens inside a football stadium.
This issue is particularly sensitive so why not put out unequivocal information about it. Or are are you happy for people to live in ignorance so you can take the moral high ground?
In fact, why don't you post something on the site to give specific information in relation to these words and why they are offensive. That would be more positive than what you are doing now.
Arsenal fans spend most of their time obsessing about Arsenal in one way or the other and will read any old shit if it has Arsenal on it, so what better way to reach arsenal fans?
Last edited by Galasso on Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Good post, Cus.
I can see both sides of the argument. You could argue that Sp*rs use the phrase as a bastion against anti-Semitism, seeing as I'm sure there is little malice involved in them calling themselves the '**** Army'. Now, you can say what you like about that, but that isn't what we're discussing. What this is about is the usage of it by Arsenal fans. While I would agree that most Gooners who use the word are not neo-Nazis, the fact that it is used in reference to Sp*rs fans without any recognition for what the word actually means is in itself disrespectful. We use it in reference to a Football Club with stereotypically Jewish affiliations and our excuse is; "well, they call themselves it." As Cus quite rightly said, we wouldn't go up to a black person and call him a "nigger" just because it is used amongst the black community, would we? As far as I can see, it's the same thing.
With that said, I understand what the majority of posters on here are saying. I'd be lying if I were to say that I never get caught up in it and thus, don't shout '****, ****' at the end of 'The Wanky Tottenham Hotspur' and therefore, don't want to get too pious about all of this, so what I would say is that not thinking about the connotations of what you're saying is one thing, but acknowledging what the word means and then defending it with "oh well, they call themselves it" isn't really good enough in my eyes.
You know what? I'm really enjoying this discussion, as it's rare that there is anything on here to actually sink your teeth in to! Keep up the good work, lads.
I can see both sides of the argument. You could argue that Sp*rs use the phrase as a bastion against anti-Semitism, seeing as I'm sure there is little malice involved in them calling themselves the '**** Army'. Now, you can say what you like about that, but that isn't what we're discussing. What this is about is the usage of it by Arsenal fans. While I would agree that most Gooners who use the word are not neo-Nazis, the fact that it is used in reference to Sp*rs fans without any recognition for what the word actually means is in itself disrespectful. We use it in reference to a Football Club with stereotypically Jewish affiliations and our excuse is; "well, they call themselves it." As Cus quite rightly said, we wouldn't go up to a black person and call him a "nigger" just because it is used amongst the black community, would we? As far as I can see, it's the same thing.
With that said, I understand what the majority of posters on here are saying. I'd be lying if I were to say that I never get caught up in it and thus, don't shout '****, ****' at the end of 'The Wanky Tottenham Hotspur' and therefore, don't want to get too pious about all of this, so what I would say is that not thinking about the connotations of what you're saying is one thing, but acknowledging what the word means and then defending it with "oh well, they call themselves it" isn't really good enough in my eyes.
You know what? I'm really enjoying this discussion, as it's rare that there is anything on here to actually sink your teeth in to! Keep up the good work, lads.
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I Hate Hleb
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green gooner
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did anyone watch the wankers play in israel last week,, there was a big st george's cross behind the goal with
on one side the chicken on a basket ball
on the other side in big letters ,, **** army,,
now this is in a stadium full of people whom i presume are of the jewish religon,, questions
1) why was it left up for the whole game
2) if people found it offensive then surely the cops would hav taken it down
now lets get started on the palestine question and why are the israelies the most racist race in the world
on one side the chicken on a basket ball
on the other side in big letters ,, **** army,,
now this is in a stadium full of people whom i presume are of the jewish religon,, questions
1) why was it left up for the whole game
2) if people found it offensive then surely the cops would hav taken it down
now lets get started on the palestine question and why are the israelies the most racist race in the world
http://forums.arsenal.com/eve/forums/a/ ... 03773/p/42
arsenal.com have now banned the word paddy describing an irish person
now that is pc gone mad,,
any of ye ever go on this forum,,
really really shite
ps,,tonysaunders would hav a field day cos it seems every second post has been moderated
arsenal.com have now banned the word paddy describing an irish person
now that is pc gone mad,,
any of ye ever go on this forum,,
really really shite
ps,,tonysaunders would hav a field day cos it seems every second post has been moderated
Warning: boring, possibly pseudo-intellectual and probably leftie liberal content below.
And the same principle holds in relation to specific races. So an individual group, such as Jews, can constitute a race if enough of them and enough other people consider them to be a race. As has been pointed out, the Nazis (as well as the many other people who have persecuted Jews down the centuries) considered them to be a race. I agree that Jews are a race in a different way to the other races we are used to thinking about (white, black, Asian etc) but the very fact that they are singled out for abuse purely for being Jewish tends to confirm that they are a race. I know that's a circular argument, but that will often be the case in relation to social constructs.
But in the end, although I and many others do consider anti-Jewish comments and behaviour to be just another form of racism, does it really matter? Regardless of what some idiot Spurs fans call themselves, why would we make fellow Arsenal fans and others feel abused?
There is no such thing as a "technical" definition of race. Biologists and anthropologists generally don't consider race to be a sound scientific concept. Race (like the idea of nationhood) is better understood as being a social construct, i.e. race exists because people believe it to exist.GoonerJim wrote:Technically Jews arent a race - they are a religion just the same as Muslims are.
And the same principle holds in relation to specific races. So an individual group, such as Jews, can constitute a race if enough of them and enough other people consider them to be a race. As has been pointed out, the Nazis (as well as the many other people who have persecuted Jews down the centuries) considered them to be a race. I agree that Jews are a race in a different way to the other races we are used to thinking about (white, black, Asian etc) but the very fact that they are singled out for abuse purely for being Jewish tends to confirm that they are a race. I know that's a circular argument, but that will often be the case in relation to social constructs.
But in the end, although I and many others do consider anti-Jewish comments and behaviour to be just another form of racism, does it really matter? Regardless of what some idiot Spurs fans call themselves, why would we make fellow Arsenal fans and others feel abused?
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gus ceasar is a legend
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Chunky The Gooner
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