AST Meeting tonight

[DB10GOONER]

Ok, I've tidied this thread up. Unfortunately it meant deleting any posts that interacted with or quoted USMartin's posts that were not related to the thread subject (The AST). But it did cut a 10 page thread down to 5 pages! I left in Martin's couple of posts were he actually addressed the issue and wasn't abusive etc.

For having to delete some of your posts, my sincere apologies go to; Goose, Boomer, G88ner, Hlebby, Flash, LeGinge, augie, stg, Revgoon89, Kiwomya, Mcdowell42, Frankbutcher, NorthbankBren, Jumpers for goalposts, Armchair supporter, Quartz, olgit, Babatunde and Gunnersaurus.

I also had to edit out Martin being quoted on a few posts that then went on to make valid points about the AST. So I hope the meaning of your messages weren't too badly affected Babatunde, Jumpers for goalposts and Le Ginge.

Hopefully we can now get this thread back on track.

[alanalansunderland]

Just to clarify a point seemingly made about the AST and putting the blame on Gazidis.

This is not AST's view, it is the view of one particular member who e-mailed the trust recently. The AST has no policy of requesting a vote of no confidence in Gazidis.

Within the trust there are varying views which i think were summed up in the end of season survey. For instance when asked whether Arsene has taken the club as far as he can if we do not win a trophy this season, 42% said yes, but 40% said no!

The comment about the share price is wrong as well. it clearly states with the prospectus for the sharesave that it should not really be seen as a vehicle to make profit on. The commitment is to hold the shares long term and build a credible supporter representation within the club.

With 2000 members and £1,000,000 invested within the year I think the trust is progressing well. Just think what we could do if we got 10,000 people contributing?

The minimum you can put in is a tenner a month, that equates to 30p a day. I think most if not all can afford 30p a day.

Problem is that there are no shares out there for the Fan Share scheme to buy, as the AST admitted themselves, because Kroenke and Usmanov have snapped them all up. Given that this is unlikely to change for a while, or if it does, it will probably only be via one of the major shareholders selling out to the other, how will 'Fan Share' ever get into a position where they can truly have an influence on the club?

Having put so much time and effort into the scheme the board of the AST will not let it fade away without a struggle.

AST are currently negotiating with the club over the way forward for the scheme. This could involve a 'placement' of shares for the AST to purchase over time.

The other way would be for the major two shareholders to sell shares to the scheme. Usmanov has said he is willing to do this as long as Kroenke matches him share for share. Therefore their positions although slightly diluted in percentage terms will be diluted at the same rate. The AST will be talking with Mr Kroenke on this point over the coming weeks.

Keep up the good work!

Although I am a little confused as I am currently paying £2 per month and above you mention that the minimum is £10 per month

£2 a month is the membership for the AST. Sharesave is completely seperate and the minimum there is £10 a month, go to the AST website for further details.

[alanalansunderland]

The point I would like to expand is is the one that hlebby questioned how much influence AST can have if there are no shares available to purchase thus ensuring that their share will always be small..........how much influence does usmanov have despite his large shareholding ? If we are realistic the board and kroenke are happy to go along with the charade of allowing the fans input into how our club is run but the reality is that in any serious issue their opinions will be dismissed in much the same way redaction are (although again it is questionable whether redaction can see that either ).

These fan groups cannot see the irony in their situations.......the only hope fans have of having any real effect is if they unite together and holding a really strong protest (with thousands in attendance not hundreds) but these people are afraid to go down that road for fear of losing that negligible influence that they have In the meantime they meet with club officials, gain small victories, air their concerns to the club who in turn promise to consider these issue's whilst continuing the policy of under investment and asset striping plus increasing ticket prices into the bargain.......you can certainly see the benefit of these meetings cant you ?

As I have said before, I do not intend my criticisms to appear personal against anybody in these groups (especially alanalan who always posts on here and answers our criticism's and concerns ) but the reality is most concerning for me and reminds of of a scene from braveheart where mel gibson tells robert bruce that he has a real chance to be a leader of his country if he would only step up to the mark........these people have a real opportunity to be a real voice of the fans if they could only stand up to the board and show them that they will no longer be pawned off - do that and you may well earn the respect and support of fans like me who have zero faith in your projects

Augie personally I have my doubts whether your view is the real voice of the fans. The AST and REDaction can only act on the feeling they get from their members. The AST do this through their meetings and via the end of season membership survey. Whilst the survey shows a definite swing towards those who feel Wenger etc have had their day there is also a significant part of the membership who feel that he is still the right man for the job.

You make the point about ticket prices but didn't both the AST and REDaction plus several other organisations make it abundantly clear that they were against the rises and informed the club of that opinion. I know for a fact that conversations were ongoing on this point right up to the actual day of the announcement.

You may well say from that the organisations are just being used by the club for their own ends and I feel that there is an element of that in the clubs dealings with the various groups. However I would suggest that even the limited success of various initiatives by the supporters groups have helped supporters in many ways.

As for the AST 'standing up to the board' well if you had been in various meetings between the AST and the club you would know that they often do and the most recent meeting was 'heated' to say the least.

If we were to call for some sort of 'action' i seriously wonder who would turn out, we do not have the numbers anyway. Which leads me back to the point that if we get to a certain level of support, a critcal mass if you like, then our views will have to be considered in far more serious and meaningful light by the club.

We need articulate (far more than me) and passionate Gooners to get involved such as yourself, shelve those prejudices and put your weight behind a common goal.

However as I have said previously to you don't quote 'braveheart' at me, its a shit film full of anti-engllish bollocks

[Mike1]

Firstly thanks to DB10 for his editing of this thread which was, and is, a very worthwhile debate.

With regards the debate about where the £10m comes from, I believe the suggestion made by a member of the AST Board was that we would end up paying £10-15m for players who will not make a single appearance for us this season.

That obviously includes any contribution which we are making to the players who have gone out on loan (Vela, Denilson, Bendtner, etc.), but also the players who are still at the club as we failed to shift them during the summer (hello Manuel) and the young players who won't get a sniff of the first team, but are handsomely rewarded because of the managers wage policy.

If you want to be pessimistic about his injury (which on past analysis wouldn't be unreasonable), it might also include Jack.

[QuartzGooner]

I am in favour of the fanshare scheme.

There are some shares on the market that are not in the hands of Korenke and Usmanov, and over time some can be added to the AST portfolio.

I think the eventual aim has to be a supporter representative as a consultative board member.Maybe not attending all board meetings, but perhaps two per season where supporter issues are discussed.

[augie]

[quote="alanalansunderland
You make the point about ticket prices but didn't both the AST and REDaction plus several other organisations make it abundantly clear that they were against the rises and informed the club of that opinion. I know for a fact that conversations were ongoing on this point right up to the actual day of the announcement.

If we were to call for some sort of 'action' i seriously wonder who would turn out, we do not have the numbers anyway. Which leads me back to the point that if we get to a certain level of support, a critcal mass if you like, then our views will have to be considered in far more serious and meaningful light by the club.

We need articulate (far more than me) and passionate Gooners to get involved such as yourself, shelve those prejudices and put your weight behind a common goal.

However as I have said previously to you don't quote 'braveheart' at me, its a shit film full of anti-engllish bollocks [/quote]


Alanalan, doesnt your comments about ticket price negotiations actually back up my original point..........the club will go through the charade of appearing to listen to fans but in reality are going to ignore them on the really serious issues

Re the protests I dont think ye are fully aware of the depth of frustration amongst the Gooner faithful - I firmly believe that at least half of the fans are angry and want changes and as far as I am concerned groups like AST, redaction and bsm should unite through the Gooner and organise a rally protest to air these grievances. Your question about who would turn out for such a march hints at a lack of credibility which I will again say that as long as your groups appear publicly to be puppets of the club then that will not change no matter how hard you fight them behind closed doors.

As for Braveheart......us Irish love it

[olgitgooner]

First of all, a big thank you to DB10 for cleaning up this thread.

I'm all for the AST/fanshare group. It provides a voice for genuine fans which the club is, more or less, duty-bound to at least listen to. This is good stuff.

Out of interest, how many shares are owned? And how does this compare to Peter Hill-Woods' holding? You can probably guess where I'm going with this.

[rolypoly]

AUGIE

"UNITE THROUGH THE GOONER"

you are having a laugh. as i have pointed out on other threads when gazidis announced his review the gooner through gooner ed gave its unequivocal support. when challenged gooner ed claimed he could not remember doing so. when it was proved he had, he was asked to explain why, he went silent.

when challenged as to why he is so uncritical of gazidis he remained silent. when challenged to give appraisal of gazidis he remained silent.

whern asked to explain what is his relationship with gazidis and other officials at club he remained silent.

when asked if he or magazine receive perks or privileges he remained silent.

pompous mike francis denied perks although this appears to be at personal level cos gooner mag often has stuff for sale or offers that must have come from club.

so the idea of the gooner being a central rallying stage is simply aint going to happen at least not if it involves being anti gazidis and his cronies. if you are simply after wenger`s blood then you may succeed but otherwise. gooner ed, mike francis almost certainly fear what they may lose whether it be personally or for their magazine should they start getting too heavy.

you ask gooner ed why he supported the gazidis review and what he thinks of him- you wont get an answer

[QuartzGooner]

Rolypoly

I cannot comment on what GoonerEd or Mike Francis think of Ivan Gazidis, I have no idea what they think.

But as a regular you would know that this site has strong anti-Wenger sentiments from some posters, and it has carried details of a protest event before, so why would any future details be censored?

People can PM each other too.

I have no problem with the staff of The Gooner getting perks off the club, it does not concern me in any way.
I say to you what I said to USMartin, if you are strongly conerned about something, why not start your own campaign about it?

[Percy Dalton]

I don't know enough on this subject to have a credible view but I have sone all the same (for what it is worth).

Regarding AST, I see fans shareholder groups as a bit of a fantasy land that the club allows a group of supporters to indulge themselves in. If that group is never finacially strong enough to hold,or is not allowed to hold, enough shares to make any difference in a vote situation then what is the point? It smacks of an old boys club having a board of their own as they have no realistic means of getting on the real board. The amount of shares held buy AST has no impact on the dealings in the club and the meetings the club representatives have with AST are a token gesture. Yes, the fans holding some shares is a very romantic thing but I doubt anyone can show me how this trivial holding has influenced a decision of any note I would be surprised.

With regards to Fanshare, as many have pointed out previously if the scheme was viable then more would have been poured in but the scheme has major downfalls. Namely Usmanov and Kroenke wanting every single available share be ing in a position to outbid anything Fanshare can offer if need be.

Lastly, RedAction. What I have never understood is the complete change in attitude towards the club from this group. Their old website had tales of battles with the club and in many cases mocking them. If I remember rightly there was a tale of Health & Safety from the club versus downright common sense from the old RedAction. For some reason (I wonder what) the whole dynamic changed and RedAction suddenly had a link from Pravda.com to their own site which had mysteriously had a very large spring clean and all negative references were removed and replaced tales of lovely 'close working relationships'. Now I don't have anything against those who form RedAction personally but I wil say that this complete change in direction, coupled with instances such as the anti-Usmanov banners, leaves their motives open to question. As an outsider it seems that their is a fair amount of back scratching going on with the club getting a mouthpiece 'on the shop floor' and RedAction getting.......well who knows.

My main issue with all of this though is that I grew up supporting Arsenal as they were the football team I loved. That was it! I loved the kit, the players, the ground! This modern day need to get involved with the politics of the club doesn't sit with me well as we, the fans, have our place and they, the board, have theirs. As fans we can have an opinion and even be informed and write books but when the ordianary supporter wants to get involved with boardroom politics I wonder where their focus is?

To my way of thinking if we had more 'ordinary' supporters and less boardroom wannabees we may have a better balance inside the ground!

[olgitgooner]

I take it you've now sold all your shares Percy?

Bloody typical of the upper classes. Deny your wealth. Try to attain street cred. Start talking in a Thames Valley accent. Join the Labour Party. Pffff!

[frankbutcher]

I take it you've now sold all your shares Percy?

Bloody typical of the upper classes. Deny your wealth. Try to attain street cred. Start talking in a Thames Valley accent. Join the Labour Party. Pffff!

.............

Grow a big belly and wear a cravatte.

[Mike1]

With regards rolypoly comments above, I'm going to bite again... I'm useless at turning the other cheek even though I know I probably should.

I've been running The Gooner now for 24 years and in that time I think the only "perk" I have received from the club was free entry to a youth cup game when we met Dein to discuss ways of improving the atmosphere. I really can't remember seeking or receiving anything subsequently either at a personal level or on behalf of the magazine.

Perhaps you can be specific with your claims rolypoly that the mag has had "stuff for sale or offers that must have come from club" because I honestly can't remember them, but am happy to be reminded as with over 200 issues published, something might have slipped my mind.

During those 24 years I've received plenty of stick from people for different things and in general it's water off a ducks back and is quickly forgotten about. However, one of the worst things about the internet is people who make claims that they cannot substantiate, but because it's there on a screen people will believe it and that damages my reputation (for what little it is worth), but also potentially the reputation of the fanzine and the website and given the effort that has gone into building it over the years, by the hundreds of people who have contributed, I can't let it pass without comment.

With regards my own thoughts on Gazidis, I won't apologise for saying that I like him and believe he has a difficult job at the moment as he's caught between an owner who has ultimate respect for the manager and a manager who was given far too much control after Dein left and has no intention of relinquishing it.

I'm not asking anyone to agree or disagree with those views - they are mine and I'm entitled to them, just like goonered is entitled to his. We've had plenty of negative comment about Gazidis on the website, in the comments and on the forum, so I certainly don't think we can be accused of protecting him.

[SWLGooner]

Good post Mike... But rolypoly comes from the USMartin school of debating so you are on a hiding to nothing.

I agree about the Gazidis hatred. Don't see what the bloke has done wrong and none of us know enough about his job description to condemn him. Has given a decent account of himself at meetings, could well be more on the commercial/marketing side of things as far as we know.

[DB10GOONER]

Mike, as one of your "minions" (I ticked that box there for ya, roly!) I agree with SWL - good post. I think you were right to bite on this occasion as our resident bullshitter was calling into question your integrity. I once got a free DVD and got to meet Kenny Sansom after a game - all free and courtesy of the club so I must be involved in this uber-conspiracy that roly is masturbating so furiously over!

I think one of the misconceptions that colours people's opinion of Gazidis is alot of people seem to have thought he would come in and wrestle back control of the club from Arsene - or at least reign Arsene in a tad. But honestly does anyone think the Board would have hired him to do that? The same board that let Arsene set up his own little fiefdom in the first place?

It's all about opinions of course, and NOT ONE OF US honestly knows what goes on behind that boardroom door.

I will say one thing though for Gazidis; a couple of years ago I emailed him and had a bit of a rant about the shit home jerseys that were being pushed by the club and a few other things. It impressed me that he actually replied to the the email and addressed each issue individually, rather than send a stock auto-reply. He came across as a genuine kind of guy and related some of the things he loved about The Arsenal and our history.

So while I'm not his biggest fan at the moment, I am prepared to give him a bit of time to see what he makes of the job. And let's not forget it can't be an easy job, given the death grip Wenger currently seems to have on our club.