The Rooney Rule

[LDB]

Sorry was racism abolished in 1993?

Did i say that?

Secondly - if you listen to what Davis said on that players stated why should we dedicate years of our lives to something which we still won't be considered for at the end of it.

They assumed they wouldnt be considered at the end of it.

25% black footballers, 2% black managers speaks for itself.

It really doesn't.

Can you accuse Davis of not trying to secure a coaching job?

No but i would perhaps accuse him of not sticking at it long enough and just assuming he would never get anywhere because he was black, so now he can just not bother and sit around lapping up the sympathy.

I don't quite understand people's mentality here, you spent the best part of a decade cheering the guy on while he was in the red and white, once he's off the pitch and quite obviously being denied the opportunity to fulfill his potential then apathy rules OK and the bloke should just try harder - just because you feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be experiencing something similar anytime soon.

Plenty of good, qualified young white managers are also denied the opportunity to fulfil their potential - its a crowded market and most boards will plump for the experienced candidates and the "names" because generally the fans prefer it, even if said manager has struggled in previous jobs. Its a long 10-20 year slog for your average retired pro to make it into a top management position but if you're going in assuming you wont make it based on the colour of your skin then you'll get exactly what you expected.

[LDB]

I assume you're white

I can tell you're straining every inch of your guardian-reading sinew to find an angle through which to label me racist.

[RNTGOONER]

I assume you're white

I can tell you're straining every inch of your guardian-reading sinew to find an angle through which to label me racist.

What's wrong with people who read the guardian?

the biggest tragedy here is fat Sam being discriminated against because he is English, and so gets overlooked for the Real Madrid job every year

[Never Outgunned]

They assumed they wouldnt be considered at the end of it.

If Davis's example is anything to go by they would assume right.

It really doesn't.

If the field is narrowed to former players and a group of players that make up 25% of that field only occupy 2% of the jobs I would say at the very least it would suggest something is not quite right and should be addressed.

No but i would perhaps accuse him of not sticking at it long enough and just assuming he would never get anywhere because he was black, so now he can just not bother and sit around lapping up the sympathy.

mmm...really? You actually know how many jobs Davis has put himself forward for do you?

And what sympathy does he lap up?

He doesn't accuse anyone of racism, he comes across as quite restrained in that interview

Plenty of good, qualified young white managers are also denied the opportunity to fulfil their potential - its a crowded market and most boards will plump for the experienced candidates and the "names" because generally the fans prefer it, even if said manager has struggled in previous jobs. Its a long 10-20 year slog for your average retired pro to make it into a top management position but if you're going in assuming you wont make it based on the colour of your skin then you'll get exactly what you expected.

Yes there are plenty of good young white coaches, however they make up 75% of the potential market and occupy 98% of the jobs - so one less thing for them to worry about there.

Yes they go for experience - but let's look at big name white pros who walked into a job based on their playing reputation only:

Roy Keane, David Platt, Stuart Pearce, Tony Adams, Terry Butcher, Bryan Robson.

All proven failures, all walked into a second job pretty quickly - whereas their black peers struggle to get a look in for a first job.

I don't quite get where you're coming from here - you maybe white but Paul Davis isn't nicking any coaching job you'd be entitled to (I assume you're not a former player or coach yourself)

Why do you begrudge a former hero fulfilling his quite obvious potential on the basis of some phony even playing field that quite clearly doesn't exist?
[/quote]

[Never Outgunned]

I assume you're white

I can tell you're straining every inch of your guardian-reading sinew to find an angle through which to label me racist.

Here we go - 'I know you're gonna call me a racist'.

I can see you're straining every inch of your Daily Star/Talksport sinew to play the white self-pity card

[g88ner]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is it really that surprising that there aren't many black managers in the UK? - or even Spain, Italy, Germany, etc.

Look at the ethnicity of the English population...

WHITE: 87.5%
BLACK: 2.9%

So, although that's a very basic breakdown, isn't it totally normal for a country with an overwhelmingly WHITE population to have an overwhelmingly WHITE majority of football managers?

All I'm saying, is that I'd like to see a breakdown of the percentage of black ENGLISH players plying their trade in England before commenting further.

Also, many black footballer in England are African or French African, etc. and are surely less likely to do management or coaching courses in the UK, so the percentage of black managers to black footballers in England may be heavily skewed by foreigners.

Just a thought.

[Never Outgunned]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is it really that surprising that there aren't many black managers in the UK? - or even Spain, Italy, Germany, etc.

Look at the ethnicity of the English population...

WHITE: 87.5%
BLACK: 2.9%

So, although that's a very basic breakdown, isn't it totally normal for a country with an overwhelmingly WHITE population to have an overwhelmingly WHITE majority of football managers?

All I'm saying, is that I'd like to see a breakdown of the percentage of black ENGLISH players plying their trade in England before commenting further.

Also, many black footballer in England are African (and in Africa THE VAST MAJORITY of managers are black!), French African, etc. and are less likely to do management coaching in the UK, so the percentage of black footballers in England may be heavily skewed by foreigners.

Just a thought.

Yes but as pointed out here, the field for coaches/managers seems to be restricted to former players.

There are 25% black players, 2% Black managers.

It tells a different story

[SWLGooner]

edit: posted a massive rant about people who play the race/gender/privilege card towards anyone semi-conservative, but just don't fancy the aggro of having to deal with some *word censored* calling me racist.

[g88ner]

Yes but as pointed out here, the field for coaches/managers seems to be restricted to former players.

There are 25% black players, 2% Black managers.

It tells a different story

It's an interesting one if those stats are correct.

Although, how many of those are English rather than foreigners? (or is that 25% just Black Englishmen? - if not, the stats will be skewed).

Also, are there more black players now than 15 years ago? - and if so, what was the percentage breakdown in 1985-1995; after all, it's players from that era that are of management age.

Just a though. It's an interesting issue, and I'd just like to try and understand the data more, that's all.

[SWLGooner]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

[g88ner]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

I find that hard to believe, as well.

And it's misleading stats like that that can completely skew the argument towards 'racism'.

As I said, I'd like to know how many black Englishmen were plying their trade in our leagues between 1985-1995, as it's mainly that era that are of management age. Beyond that, many black Englishmen are either still playing or recently retired and are irrelevant to the discussion.

I just want to make sure we're comparing apples with apples... and I'm not convinced we are! (that's the resesrch scientist/engineer in me coming out )

[RNTGOONER]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

you might be right

looking at our starting team we have Walcott and Gibbs as starters that are Englishmen and have black / African heritage

Liverpool have Johnston only

man utd have welbeck and smalling

Chelsea have sturridge

man city lescott and richards

scummers have king and walker

what is that 10 or 12% ?

[LDB]

Yes they go for experience - but let's look at big name white pros who walked into a job based on their playing reputation only:

Roy Keane, David Platt, Stuart Pearce, Tony Adams, Terry Butcher, Bryan Robson.

All proven failures, all walked into a second job pretty quickly - whereas their black peers struggle to get a look in for a first job.

You've hit on a seperate issue entirely there which is nothing to do with race but since everything seems to be about race with you i would say that John Barnes is a black example of playing reputation giving one a head start in management.

I don't quite get where you're coming from here - you maybe white but Paul Davis isn't nicking any coaching job you'd be entitled to (I assume you're not a former player or coach yourself)

Where im coming from is that i think the rooney rule is barking up the wrong tree as i dont accept its premise that institutional racism is prevalent in english football and although its not quite affirmative action it would likely be a stepping stone to it when (as IHH pointed out) a few years down the line people start to ask why the rooney rule hasn't translated into outcomes.

Why do you begrudge a former hero fulfilling his quite obvious potential on the basis of some phony even playing field that quite clearly doesn't exist?

I have no idea what potential paul davis has, ive never spoken to the bloke or seen him coach. I begrudge him nothing. I just suspect he packed in his coaching career too early after assuming the knockbacks that every potential manager will undoubtedly recieve were down to race

[gunner_ace]

My take on this is that I think their does need to be more ethnic managers, but dont force the issue through making a quota system when interviewing. It must be quite derogitory towards the black candidate who gets the interview just because of the colour of their skin. I wouldnt want to be selected for an interview on that basis. Their must be another way surely.

Also it does seem to be the tho art more enlightened then all of you, we set the agenda white liberal media who are pushing this whole issue, and suprisingly not the "lets kick it out" campagin who get a huge amount of public funding. Surely this is an issue that is tailor made for them, but yet they are suprisingly quiet on the matter. hmmm.

And one other point is that other then Darren Lewis at the mirror who can name any more well known black sports journalists? Get your own house in order first me thinks before you start preaching from your ivory tower.

[worthing_gooner]

Simple fact of the matter is that you should be selecting and interviewing based on their ability as a manager, not their race.

Who gives a toss if they're black/white/asian/whatever - can they do the job? Can they motivate? Can they win trophies? Can they deal with the media? These are the questions that should be taken into consideration.

It's a disgrace that there is even consideration being put towards giving a black person an interview because they're black, regardless of how good they might be for the job. If I was a black person I'd find that insulting.

If I was going for a job in a predominantly black industry and they said we're giving you an interview not because we think you're best for the job but that we've been forced to because you're white and we need more white people in this industry, I'd tell them to shove their job up their arse.

I'd want a job based on my merit and ability, not my race just to fulfil some stupid quota.

At the end of the day, I've absolutely no doubt people like TH14, PV4, Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand etc would make great managers and I've no doubt that if their ability was good enough, they would be appointed to premier league posts.

To suggest the english football leagues hold some kind of institutional racism is just a joke frankly. If I ran AFC and was interviewing for a manager, and I had a white manager who you would call "national class" and a black manager who was "world class", the black manager would get the job because he's best for the job. Vice versa if the white manager was world class and the black manager was national class.

That is all that should matter for the appointment, and that's all that should matter for the interviewing stage.

Rant over