As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Percy Dalton wrote:Herd I have to disagree on that.
I think people have become more aware just how unjustified the loss of life is and the sadness that goes with that makes people want to honour those lost more.
I also think that this generation now understands what it is to be at war and to lose life hence the poppy movement is more relevant now to many.
Noted your thoughts Perc and I do realise that a large section of the Population can separate the respect and support of Troops from the Pro or Anti war argument ,however I see it getting muddled too !
Pre 9/11 the Poppy was in serious decline in sales and revenue but since then and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan the nation has gotten Poppy fever !
Percy Dalton wrote:Herd I have to disagree on that.
I think people have become more aware just how unjustified the loss of life is and the sadness that goes with that makes people want to honour those lost more.
I also think that this generation now understands what it is to be at war and to lose life hence the poppy movement is more relevant now to many.
Noted your thoughts Perc and I do realise that a large section of the Population can separate the respect and support of Troops from the Pro or Anti war argument ,however I see it getting muddled too !
Pre 9/11 the Poppy was in serious decline in sales and revenue but since then and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan the nation has gotten Poppy fever !
imo not sure about 9/11 more about losing teenage and young men to any war the poppy to me is not about supporting any individual war, more remembering those who died too soon.
I'll preface my comments by stating that I hate FIFA and I wear a poppy, but I do have some issues with the poppy on the England shirt.
When I first heard the 'FIFA bans poppy' story I was outraged, but on reflection I think it's the right thing.
The issues I have are:
There has been an increasing poppy fascism in recent years with the media going overboard if some minor celeb or politican 'forgets' to wear their poppy. The right to wear the poopy should be matched by the right not to wear it.
This poppy on shirt thing is a recent phenomenom and I can see how others might be suspicious of the motives behind it. The English FA does have a reputation for arrogance (largely justifiable imo).
However, the biggest argument for me is the need to have a rule which is enforced. We in England might see the poppy as innocuous but how would we feel if Israel wanted a symbol on their shirts to 'commemorate' their fallen in the 6 Day War or from recent rocket attacks or if Iran wanted to commemorate 'martyrs' in the fight against imperialism. One man's commemoration is another man's political statement.
There are innumerable things our FA could do to show its support. Let's just play the match and on Sunday turn our thoughts to matters more serious.
There has been an increasing poppy fascism in recent years with the media going overboard if some minor celeb or politican 'forgets' to wear their poppy. The right to wear the poopy should be matched by the right not to wear it.
I agree with this, i usually give money but tell them to keep the poppy. Stupid thing always gets lost or crushed anyway.
Percy Dalton wrote:Herd I have to disagree on that.
I think people have become more aware just how unjustified the loss of life is and the sadness that goes with that makes people want to honour those lost more.
I also think that this generation now understands what it is to be at war and to lose life hence the poppy movement is more relevant now to many.
Noted your thoughts Perc and I do realise that a large section of the Population can separate the respect and support of Troops from the Pro or Anti war argument ,however I see it getting muddled too !
Pre 9/11 the Poppy was in serious decline in sales and revenue but since then and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan the nation has gotten Poppy fever !
You mean since people have become more aware of the significance of the poppy since they saw dead bodies coming back from recent wars?
Herd wrote:The Poppy appeal is one I have subscribed to for years and have even taken the day off to sell flags etc( as I do with the RNLI) however I am becoming increasingly worried that the appeal and the support for the troops movement and the good people of Royal Wootton Basset are being cynically manipulated by those who continue to wage war ie the Government of the UK and it's boss the USA.
It's easy to mistake support for brave ground troops with support for unjustifiable wars such as we are still waging in Afghanistan where the population are still being murdered by both sides of this horrific conflict.
The involvement of Football clubs in all this also makes me feel this way .
Herd, im gonna have to go shower after this post but i agree with you. The massive, sudden, unexplained surge in the poppy a few years back and the fact you can barely move now without running into something about "our boys" has the dodgy whiff of government marketing spivs. Its become a bit like the AKB cult these days, to question the war(s) is to question the troops just like to question Wenger is to hate the club.
It is worrying but the fact that fifa can get to fuck is an entirely separate issue.
At last the voices of reason. Thanks lads for adding a sprinkling of common sense to the debate.
And while I'm here (this is my last entry on this topic, wouldn't want to overstay my welcome in PercyDalton's gaff) let me state for the record.
I don't think UEFA, FIFA or anyone else should dictate the design of any football shirts. If England want to have a poppy or any other flower on their football shirts that should be a decision for the English FA to make.
You all know this is because of all the bullshit around the world cup bid. What the fa should do us announce a new shirt for this match that incorporates the flower. The red has been ordered to stop the match if England put them in so it would properly put the ball in our court. When your faced with a while stadium of fans the last thing u want to do is cancel the game. And the so u really think the fa would be gracious enough to offer refunds for all those attending
I think FIFA is right, our armed forces are not a political issue in this country, but in other countries British armed forces are seen as invaders, etc.
Its already turning into a political issue with Cameron commenting; what's to stop eg Hugo Chavez commenting and doing something similar on the Venezuela shirt or even Argentina honouring armed forces lost in the Falklands war.
First of all I don't know why England have had to ask FIFA about this but I don't know why there is so much fuss over this anyway.
Why now? It is hardly the first time that Engalnd will have played an international match at this time of the year. On 10th November 1965 England played Northern Ireland and I don't imagine anyone gave wearing a poppy a second thought. More important was to win the game in preparation to winning the World Cup the following year.
Why can't the players just all wear poppies on their coats and then get on with the job of winning a football match? oh I forgot we are so crap now that we have no chance of beating Spain.
SpanishJoe wrote:
However, the biggest argument for me is the need to have a rule which is enforced. We in England might see the poppy as innocuous but how would we feel if Israel wanted a symbol on their shirts to 'commemorate' their fallen in the 6 Day War or from recent rocket attacks or if Iran wanted to commemorate 'martyrs' in the fight against imperialism. One man's commemoration is another man's political statement.
There are innumerable things our FA could do to show its support. Let's just play the match and on Sunday turn our thoughts to matters more serious.
Spot on spanish joe. Whats wrong with what the scots are doing which is have a poppy printed on their training kit, which will be worn gor thier national anthem.
Had this been an ongoing tradition within english football for many years the FA would have a much stronger argument. But Im pretty sure the england team has never had a poppy on it shirt ever. And it shows the real arrogance that the fa have to try and force it through. As joe has already said could you imagine if every country in the world had some sort of symbol on their shirt celebrating a war victory or commemorating fallen soilders. I dont think it would be long before there was outrage from the fa about other countries celebrating battle victories over the english.
Wear their poppies on their suits going into the ground and their training tops before the game and for the national anthem. Maybe even all hold a wreath for the two minute silence that is planned.
Fifa allows England to wear poppy on black armbands
Page last updated at
17:49 GMT, Wednesday, 9 November 2011
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Fifa decrees shirts should not carry political, religious or commercial messages Fifa has agreed that the England team can wear poppies on their black armbands during Saturday's friendly against Spain at Wembley.
The move came after Prince William and Prime Minister David Cameron wrote to Fifa asking that England be allowed to wear shirts embroidered with poppies.
Fifa bans political, religious or commercial messages on shirts.
The Football Association of Wales is now considering its position ahead of Wales' game against Norway.
The announcement of the compromise between the Football Association and Fifa came shortly after it was revealed that the Duke of Cambridge had written a letter to world football's governing body in his position as president of the FA.
Clarence House said the Prince was "dismayed" by Fifa's initial stance.
"The Duke's strong view is that the poppy is a universal symbol of remembrance, which has no political, religious or commercial connotations," said a statement.
Earlier on Wednesday, Mr Cameron said he would also write to Fifa asking it to lift the ban ahead of England's game with the world champions.
"It seems outrageous," said Mr Cameron. "I hope Fifa will reconsider."
As an alternative to having embroidered poppies on their shirts, the FA had previously said England players would wear black armbands during the game and lay a wreath on the pitch during the national anthems.
England did not wear poppies for games close to Remembrance Day against Argentina on 12 November, 2005 and Sweden on 10 November, 2001.
But an FA spokesman said "a greater focus has been given to the level of support and respect shown by the national teams" over the past five years.
He added: "Since 2005, our clubs have all begun to wear poppies on their match shirts in domestic games for the early part of November as a mark of respect for those who lost their lives serving their country.
"The FA and England team have built very strong relationships with Tickets4Troops, Help for Heroes and the Royal British Legion over the past five years.
"As part of this growing commitment, we wanted to show our respect and support this weekend by wearing the poppy and our players are very passionate and vocal about this."
England and Wales' rugby league players will be wearing poppies this weekend, along with the other two teams - Australia and New Zealand - involved in the Four Nations.
