Our CL record under Wenger

[flash gunner]

Our qualification record and going on to the latter stages is very good end of story

Yep qualification is good 16 years in a row can't be argued with but latter stages? 1 final and 1 semi final in those 16 years is pretty shit in most peoples book

[StuartL]

Our qualification record and going on to the latter stages is very good end of story

Yep qualification is good 16 years in a row can't be argued with but latter stages? 1 final and 1 semi final in those 16 years is pretty shit in most peoples book

Especially when the whole competition is seeded, to try to ensure that the last 16 are " the big boys" from the biggest european nations so that it makes as much marketing / sponsorship revenue as possible.

Financially we like to boast about being the 4th / 5th ( whatever we are) biggest moneyspinners in European football, so in terms of that we underachieve badly, nearly every season.

[highburyJD]

I can't be arsed to list the teams that have won the European Cup from your list, you'll know them anyway but to defend Wenger's record seems bizarre.

there are lots of European Cup winners in that list getting knocked out at the last 16: Real Madrid, AC Milan and Bayern (alongside Liverpool) are the most successful clubs in the competitions history. The reason I'm defending Wenger's record isn't because it's awesome. It's because of people like Frank losing it and coming out with nonsense like -

Wenger's record in the CL is fucking shit and something he or his wanky braindead fans shudn't be proud of!

which is quite correctly skewered by herd

The Anti Wenger Brigade are now so warped that they try to argue anything positive into a negative and are as deluded as the AKB's .
Our qualification record and going on to the latter stages is very good end of story

flash, reasonably accepts what herd says

Yep qualification is good 16 years in a row can't be argued with but latter stages? 1 final and 1 semi final in those 16 years is pretty shit in most peoples book

and made a more reasonable criticism. Personally I think we we have pretty much the record we deserve performance-wise. But that Liverpool robbery still rankles. Stonewall pen, Kuyt on Hleb, ignored by an old mate of Kuyt's bizarrely chosen to ref the game. Then the super soft decision against Kolo, shocker.

Financially we like to boast about being the 4th / 5th ( whatever we are) biggest moneyspinners in European football, so in terms of that we underachieve badly, nearly every season.

How big a money-spinner you are is irrelevant when your opponents can spend massive stolen national resources.
No way we're 4th, ManUre, RealMadrid, Barca and Bayern must all be miles ahead...

[northbank123]

JD - that Liverpool night still fucks me off too. Unfortunately looking back through the last 5 years the bitter memories far outweigh the happy ones regarding Arsenal.

But looking back in the cold light of day would we really have then beaten Chelsea over 2 legs and then United in the final? We went to pieces domestically around that time.

[northbank123]

Not sure what perspective you're asking for when Wenger and co ram it down our throats that qualification in the last few years has been a success when you and I know that we've been completely embarrassed the last 4 years.

completely embarrassed compared to who?
Not even qualifying (like we may do this season) is embarrassing
Not getting out the groups: ManUre, ManShitty and Chelski in last two seasons is embarrassing
Losing by one goal is not 'embarrassing' - Bendtner score v Barca we're through, vanStaplecunt scores v AC it's 4-4
As I said Barca scoring two late goals v 10 men in the final gave them their SECOND Champions League EVER

The perspective I'm asking for is comparative reality: should we automatically be ahead of Chelski, ManShitty and ManUre? Should we automatically be better than AC or Inter?
Bayern are the biggest club in the biggest country in Europe - is it 'embarrassing' that they're better than us?
I hope we can beat all of these clubs to trophies.
IMO anyone that thinks we automatically should
and that it's embarrassing whenever we don't is simply unrealistic.

these are the last 4 years last 16s
Bayern, Fiorentina, AC, ManUre, Lyon, RMad, Olympiakos, Bordeaux, Inter, Chelski, CSKA, Seville, Porto, Arsenal, Stuttgart, Barca (AC, Real, Chels, Porto all go out)

Lyon, RealMadrid, AC Milan, Sperz, Arsenal, Barca, Roma, Shaktar, Inter, Bayern, Valencia, Schalke, Copenhagen, Chelski, Marseille, ManUre (AC, Arsenal, Bayern, Valencia go out)

Marseille, Inter, Basel, Bayern, Lyon, Apoel, CSKA, Real Madrid, Zenit, Benfica, Napoli, Chelski, AC Milan, Arsenal, Barca, Bayer Lev (Inter, Arsenal go out)

Gala, Schalke, Celtic, Juve, Arsenal, Bayern, Shaktar, Dortmund, AC Milan, Barca, RealM, ManUre, Valencia, PSG, Porto, Malaga (ManUre are out, so are one of AC and Barca)

Was it not embarrassing losing 4-0 and completely folding against a pretty average AC Milan side? Was it not embarrassing to chase shadows for 90 minutes while Bayern coasted to a comfortable victory against us at home this year? Barcelona may be a special case as they are/were probably the best club side in decades but can you honestly say it wasn't embarrassing the way we were steamrolled when we went out there and started Almunia Silvestre, Eboue, Denilson and Bendtner amongst others in 2010?

'Should we automatically win things' or 'what right do we have to demand trophies' is such a fucking lazy argument to put forward - the crux of the problem is that Wenger and his disciples constantly talk up our CL record when there are 3 other English teams who have done far more in the competition than us in the last decade alone. I (and many others) think it's ridiculous that his greatest failing is generally championed as the biggest reason for his continuation by his fans. And then take the approach that we can't compete with Citeh/Chelsea/United anyway if all else fails.

[highburyJD]

I haven't particularly "champion"ed our CL record, recently it's not good enough
but I will defend it

you say "lazy arguments" I say what do you want in response to phrases like 'whipping boys of Europe' and 'shit record'?
You said top four/five moneyearners - thats a pretty lazy argument
two seconds of thinking eliminates us from top 4
and realistically we all know what you can spend, is more important than what you can earn

our consistency in qualification, both for the CL and from the groups, is a great strength (that we have not taken full advantage of) silly to pretend getting there and getting through is bad, as Herd pointed out

over two legs v AC we lost by one goal (personally think ref had a bit of a shocker 2nd half at the Grove)
first leg was very very bad, Vermaelen in particular was horrible
second leg exciting, but not quite good enough - we lost by one goal, overall the tie was not that bad
Thiago Silva and Ibrahimovic were their star players - both are now gone yet they have just beaten Barca 2-0
reality is AC Milan can be a dangerous prospect at home

I can't understand or make excuses for Almunia or Silvestre - those decision are inexplicable to me
Wenger saw something in the others, Den, Eboue and Bendtner were not so far off

just checked the 3-0, we bought on Park-Chu in the 84th min - that's pretty embarrassing

[StuartL]

I haven't particularly "champion"ed our CL record, recently it's not good enough
but I will defend it

you say "lazy arguments" I say what do you want in response to phrases like 'whipping boys of Europe' and 'shit record'?
You said top four/five moneyearners - thats a pretty lazy argument
two seconds of thinking eliminates us from top 4
and realistically we all know what you can spend, is more important than what you can earn

our consistency in qualification, both for the CL and from the groups, is a great strength (that we have not taken full advantage of) silly to pretend getting there and getting through is bad, as Herd pointed out

over two legs v AC we lost by one goal (personally think ref had a bit of a shocker 2nd half at the Grove)
first leg was very very bad, Vermaelen in particular was horrible
second leg exciting, but not quite good enough - we lost by one goal, overall the tie was not that bad
Thiago Silva and Ibrahimovic were their star players - both are now gone yet they have just beaten Barca 2-0
reality is AC Milan can be a dangerous prospect at home

I can't understand or make excuses for Almunia or Silvestre - those decision are inexplicable to me
Wenger saw something in the others, Den, Eboue and Bendtner were not so far off

just checked the 3-0, we bought on Park-Chu in the 84th min - that's pretty embarrassing

Our club like to boast about how they are in the top half dozen money earning clubs in Europe - Why ??

Because on the pitch (where it matters) we are so far behind that they cannot make any such claim without being laughed out of town.

The 2nd leg v Milan was a great effort but why were we left trying to achieve a miracle in the first place ?

[StuartL]

I haven't particularly "champion"ed our CL record, recently it's not good enough
but I will defend it

you say "lazy arguments" I say what do you want in response to phrases like 'whipping boys of Europe' and 'shit record'?
You said top four/five moneyearners - thats a pretty lazy argument
two seconds of thinking eliminates us from top 4
and realistically we all know what you can spend, is more important than what you can earn

our consistency in qualification, both for the CL and from the groups, is a great strength (that we have not taken full advantage of) silly to pretend getting there and getting through is bad, as Herd pointed out

over two legs v AC we lost by one goal (personally think ref had a bit of a shocker 2nd half at the Grove)
first leg was very very bad, Vermaelen in particular was horrible
second leg exciting, but not quite good enough - we lost by one goal, overall the tie was not that bad
Thiago Silva and Ibrahimovic were their star players - both are now gone yet they have just beaten Barca 2-0
reality is AC Milan can be a dangerous prospect at home

I can't understand or make excuses for Almunia or Silvestre - those decision are inexplicable to me
Wenger saw something in the others, Den, Eboue and Bendtner were not so far off

just checked the 3-0, we bought on Park-Chu in the 84th min - that's pretty embarrassing

Our club like to boast about how they are in the top half dozen money earning clubs in Europe - Why ??

Because on the pitch (where it matters) we are so far behind that they cannot make any such claim without being laughed out of town.

The 2nd leg v Milan was a great effort but why were we left trying to achieve a miracle in the first place ?

[VoiceOfReason]

you say "lazy arguments" I say what do you want in response to phrases like 'whipping boys of Europe' and 'shit record'?

It's all relative though. Sure, we're not the overall tournament whipping boys - they're likely to be teams like Nordsjaelland and Lille.

However, for our level - one of the top seeds, and supposedly one of the best eight teams in the tournament - we're essentially whipping boys to the other seven top seeds.

On the basis that there's no use comparing us to AK Alkmaar and Standard Liege (unless that's the level we want to be competing at), it's only worthwhile comparing us to Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd et al. And as far as that's concerned, we're whipping boys.

Those clubs look at us in the same way we look at FC Thun and BATE Borisov, and on the basis we moved stadiums to supposedly compete with the biggest clubs in the world, we're massively failing. If people continue to tolerate mediocrity, then nothing will improve (the opposite, in fact).

[donaldo]

you say "lazy arguments" I say what do you want in response to phrases like 'whipping boys of Europe' and 'shit record'?

We are the whipping boys of the knockout stages.When the draw for the last 16 was made every team wanted to draw us.

The only CL record we have is the only team never to have one shot in a game in the history of the CL

[Chippy]

Very good article on F365 today. I think he might have read some of the posts on here!

http://www.football365.com/f365-says/8560903/F365-Focus

[officepest]

I reckon our record under Wenger will be holed below the waterline after we've effectively thrown this tie.

What the buggery bollocks is the point in qualifying for this fucking thing if we behave like Wenger has with this (Bayern) team selection?

Oh yeah, money.

[topgoon]

In the champions league since the United semi, every season in the knockout stages feels like one of those crap formula one teams that do f**k all all season and the team all ***** themselves into oblivion when one of their drivers manages to gain one solitary point......big wow.

[VoiceOfReason]

I remember that for most of the 2000s, we were pretty much confident of getting through the group stages and the last 16, before the competition really started for us in the QFs.

These days, we're confident of getting through the group stages but know we'll pretty much be out in the last 16 (as we have been for the past three seasons).

What a massive regression this is. Presumably one of the reasons for it is that we're not winning the groups anymore, which is criminal considering a) we're a top seed, and b) the teams involved.

[highburyJD]

However, for our level - one of the top seeds, and supposedly one of the best eight teams in the tournament - we're essentially whipping boys to the other seven top seeds.

We are the whipping boys of the knockout stages.

you did read my earlier post...?
With the KO stages for the last 4 years
that's enough to disprove your arguments but by all means do your own research, go further back

what you are posting is mathmatically incorrect simple BS.
Check the records of the top seeds, frequently they get KO'd at last 16 or the groups
Chelski this year, ManUre last,
Real seemed to be KO'd early for donkeys before Mourinho got there (normally by Lyon)

It's not true that our top seed record is worse than the others
and if it was we would no longer be top seeds...
thats how seeding works