THE WENGER THREAD

[brazilianGOONER]

oh, i'm sorry, i thought it was the progress of Arsenal FC you were worried about.

we are playing like title contenders. end of. we may crash and burn during the season, that's another discussion, but the quality of football being displayed so far AND the results we are getting since february/march are simply those of champions, and if you disagree it's the negativity clouding what you see.

i'm one of those who will never forgive the lack of investment in the last few years, the fact we had manuel fucking almunia as first choice for so long, the fact we sold our best players to "rivals", and the same list you are all about to bring. i asked for wenger's head many times ever since we were fucked at old trafford couple of years back...

...but denying this is a quite excellent team we have now, playing some very good football and deffo capable of winning things, is letting the upset of seasons past influence your vision of this current one. it's how i see it. project "young squad", or project "let's spend little while we pay for the stadium" was unsuccessful and i agree wenger should be responsible for more apologies than he provided us (even though we never fell to liverpool or tottenham's low standards), but still, from what i've seen in the last year or so, i'm a happy panda.

i try to see it this way: wenger's reign as a manager was 50% perfection and joy (the first part), and 50% disappointment and underachievement. looking from a distance, that's not perfect but it's far from criminal, as some here may suggest.

Quantify that statement bg - anybody that has watched our games this season will tell you that our performances have been very patchy and have rarely hit the heights that you would expect from champions.

quantify it i will my friend, as it is one of the very few things in this life that i can do properly.

this season (talking premier league only), we've played 12, won 9, drew 1. that's champions form. but then, we haven't played every team yet, so let's consider every fixture since the start of the year - when we didn't have ozil or flamini: and since the start of the year, we've played 31, won 21, drew 5 and lost 5. you do have to consider that 2 of those defeats and 2 of those draws came in january, when this good run of form hadn't yet started, and we were still figuring what to do with gervinho and santos.

that means that since february, we've played 26, won 20, drew 3 and lost 3.

that's the best quantification of "champions form" that i can think of, mate.

The quality of football is not as good as you seem to suggest that it is so you are wrong on that point for sure. Now if you are talking about grinding out results when not playing well then I agree that is a skill that any title winning team needs to have but I would suggest that a title winning team would have to be turning in good performances on a more regular basis than we are.
There are not too many Gooners who would disagree with the suggestion that we have improved this season but to win trophies, you have to be capable of beating other teams challenging for trophies and we have done nothing to suggest that we are near that level yet

now, that's the thing. i don't think last year's champions played beautiful quality football for long periods. it was just a team that grinded out results when needed, and look how far away from the rest they were. i think we play better football on a more frequent basis now than united did last season. but see, as there's no quantification for quality, this is a tough issue.

but you mention that we don't have the quality to beat teams challenging for trophies.

then tell me which team in the world is better than these fellas that we beat at their home then:





this is a matter of 'football taste' i think. being 'good enough' depends hugely on each person's impressions and opinions on quality of a football team.

what I think, and you have to consider i'm a physicist and a photographer and not anything related to working with football so pardon my ignorance, is that this is a good squad, with some very good and some brilliant footballers, and that not enjoying our current performances and results look as if complaining is more important than enjoying. and we have many reasons to enjoy this team.

[Humoresque]

Well after 12 games we are 9 points better than last season and United are 9 points worse than they were. It's pleasantly surprising. I'm confident of a top 2 result.

i would think City and the chavs are down 6-9 too.

if we win the title this year, it will be down to other teams failings. for me, for Wenger to get out of Jail free he has to win 2 titles in the next three years plus the Champions League.

Otherwise our failure to compete in the League, Champions League and FA Cup for 8 years is also his legacy.

Your expectations are insanely high. We've never achieved that level of success in the modern era. Not even the invincibles.

And also, comments like "if we win the title this year, it will be down to other teams failings" just shows how unreasonable some fans are. Even if we succeed, they'll turn it into a negative. It's pathetic (on offence )

Even if we hadn't built a new stadium, and even if oil money hadn't come into the league, it would still be unreasonable. There's mitigating circumstances whether you like wenger or not. Don't let hate blind you

can you really say the PL isn't down this year?

Chelsea aren't doing well under Jose II
ManUre haven't found form under Moyes
Sp*rs are frauds like always even though they became media darlings
Man City aren't near the top and have a new manager

Ironically it's 7th and 8th place finishing Liverpool which are turning things around.

the league is down this year , I have no clue where we'll be come Feb. or April but no doubt the league is down this year.

[brazilianGOONER]

just to add some more 'quantification':

i've looked at the number of points of champions up to 4th place in the last 10 years of premier league. in average, champions got 88.6 points, second placed got 82.2, third got 75.9 and Arsenal got 68.4.

That means that the champions get an average 2.33 points per game, vice-champions an average 2.16, third-placed teams get 1.99 and fourth-placed get 1.80 points per game.

our record this season is... guess.. you're right. EXACTLY 2.33 points per game. if you consider our form since february, that goes up to 2,42 points per game. the only team ever to beat that was chelsea in 04/05, with ridiculous 95 points at the end of the season (2.5 points per game). the invincibles were at 2.36.

if that's not enough quantification then i have no clue what it is, augie...

i know being the best team from february to december doesn't make you champions, but as i said, it's champions form. and i stand by it.

[SteveO 35]

just to add some more 'quantification':

i've looked at the number of points of champions up to 4th place in the last 10 years of premier league. in average, champions got 88.6 points, second placed got 82.2, third got 75.9 and Arsenal got 68.4.

That means that the champions get an average 2.33 points per game, vice-champions an average 2.16, third-placed teams get 1.99 and fourth-placed get 1.80 points per game.

our record this season is... guess.. you're right. EXACTLY 2.33 points per game. if you consider our form since february, that goes up to 2,42 points per game. the only team ever to beat that was chelsea in 04/05, with ridiculous 95 points at the end of the season (2.5 points per game). the invincibles were at 2.36.

if that's not enough quantification then i have no clue what it is, augie...

i know being the best team from february to december doesn't make you champions, but as i said, it's champions form. and i stand by it.

Stats, stats and more stats

Quite how cut and pasting the two easiest parts of the respective seasons together and proclaiming 'title form' works I don't know. All you're doing is ignoring the difficult parts of the season. Guess what - if we played Palace, Norwich, Sunderland and Fulham all in the same month, I think we might have a good chance of getting a 3 point average.....whoopee fucking doo

How about looking at our January 2013 average points total when we played Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea all in the same month? Oh yes we took 5 points from 5 games......an average of 1 point per game x 38 games = 38 ! Relegation form

If only titles could be won on the back of playing Wigan, Norwich, Sunderland, Stoke, Fulham, Palace etc.

Strangely enough in November 2012 when we had games against Everton and United away we averaged 6 points from 5 games.....how odd eh?

Do you think.....whisper it softly.....that the quality of the opposition might have something to do with the points average. Don't tell everyone though

[brazilianGOONER]

Stats, stats and more stats

sorry, but if "how many points we are fucking gaining" is only stats and numbers, then i wonder about your perception of statistics and the universe... you might probably believe in astrology and scientology then

edit: and if you read above, you'll see it's augie who's asked for 'quantifications'.

Quite how cut and pasting the two easiest parts of the respective seasons together and proclaiming 'title form' works I don't know. All you're doing is ignoring the difficult parts of the season. Guess what - if we played Palace, Norwich, Sunderland and Fulham all in the same month, I think we might have a good chance of getting a 3 point average.....whoopee fucking doo

during that period, we played (and beat) liverpool, bayern munchen, tottenham, borussia dortmund, napoli, swansea, southampton (two teams who love to beat the teams you claim are so much better than ours)...

How about looking at our January 2013 average points total when we played Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea all in the same month? Oh yes we took 5 points from 5 games......an average of 1 point per game x 38 games = 38 ! Relegation form

i can see statistics really is not your forte - it works like this: the biggest the pool of data you analyze, the more valid your final results are (that works in all fields, from science to arts). so, let me add january to my points/game comparison. then, since january first, we're on 2,2 points per game. that's more than united got in 10/11, when they were champions. don't forget also that in january we were on terrible form and the team was weaker than it is now.

If only titles could be won on the back of playing Wigan, Norwich, Sunderland, Stoke, Fulham, Palace etc.
Strangely enough in November 2012 when we had games against Everton and United away we averaged 6 points from 5 games.....how odd eh?
Do you think.....whisper it softly.....that the quality of the opposition might have something to do with the points average. Don't tell everyone though

i think you can only beat whoever is front of you, and that this team has been showing it can beat even the greatest teams in europe away from home. i also think you need to get a lot of points per game to be champions, and it is what we are doing. if we can be ruthless against small teams (exactly like we've been) and lose a bit more points to the three bigger teams than they do, but still do enough to end with more points then them, i'm cool with it.

you say the title's decided on those 6 games. i say it is decided during the entire 38 games played. if it sounds like i think we're the best ever and we're going to win everything, do understand that's not the point - personally i don't think we'll even win the league this season. what i find to be lazy thinking is to keep cursing and complaining when the improvements are huge and there for all to see. we still need more quality players, more squad depth, etc, but i can't look at the way we're playing and not be happy and encouraged by it.

[clockender1]

that means that since february, we've played 26, won 20, drew 3 and lost 3.


then tell me which team in the world is better than these fellas that we beat at their home then:

since february how many wins to we have against regular top six sides, and how many losses ?

and didn't that Bayern team beat us 3-1 at home in the first leg, to need us to win 3-0 at their gaff ? - and who went through to the Champions League next round ?

i also note the previous losses last season to Blackburn, Bradford, Norwich and Schalke seem to have been overlooked too, not to mention the home loss to Villa and the weak display at OT at one of the poorest United sides for generations, all courtesy of the highest paid manager in the country and 3rd highest in the World.

[brazilianGOONER]

since february how many wins to we have against regular top six sides, and how many losses ?

and didn't that Bayern team beat us 3-1 at home in the first leg, to need us to win 3-0 at their gaff ? - and who went through to the Champions League next round ?

i also note the previous losses last season to Blackburn, Bradford, Norwich and Schalke seem to have been overlooked too, not to mention the home loss to Villa and the weak display at OT at one of the poorest United sides for generations, all courtesy of the highest paid manager in the country and 3rd highest in the World.

so the only argument you and everyone have is our record against city, united and chelsea? i don't have the time today, but i promise i will analyze how important that is to title winners soon. it takes more time than just how many points do winners get, etc, but i promise i will do it.

and here's the thing: since i'm not biased to want to believe anything just to prove my point, i swear that, even if i find out that it is indeed necessary to get more out of those 6 games, i will eat my own words, but i'm pretty sure that previous title winners have had poor form against the other top 4 teams. will look into it and get back here.

and when you mention the bad results we had - well, the team in 01/02 and 97/98 lost stupid games, the invincibles drew a dozen games, including portsmouth TWICE, charlton athletic, fulham, leicester city (those two in sequence), bolton, birmingham... i could go on and mention the defeats in other great seasons, but you get my point - the way to become champions is to win more points than anyone else, no matter how much, no matter which teams you beat and which teams you didn't. you need more points than (usually) manchester united, that's the only fucking rule.

and the way i see it, we're doing just that at the moment - being better than anyone else. my only problem with our team at the moment is my reluctance to accept we can maintain form, because we haven't been able to do so in a decade.

here's to hoping that this good form since february is not a fluke and that we can keep our current level.

[SteveO 35]

Regardless of what any previous fucking stats throw up, what is needed is consistency between August and May......not Feb to November, or any other period staggered over 2 seasons.

If we come through December unscathed then I will allow myself to start believing we could achieve something this season.

Bring up whatever stats you like - if we lose to City and Chelsea just before Xmas its the impact on the current team that matters....not whether 'x' years ago someone managed to only take a few points off the top teams and still win a title. Those two games will be the make or break for the season - take 4 or 6 points from those two and we head into the Christmas period riding high. Lose both or get only a point and we'll then see how the squad copes with that below before heading into two away games in quick succession against the Hammers and Barcodes.

[brazilianGOONER]

Regardless of what any previous fucking stats throw up, what is needed is consistency between August and May......not Feb to November, or any other period staggered over 2 seasons.

If we come through December unscathed then I will allow myself to start believing we could achieve something this season.

i agree with everything you say here (i said so in this very page). which is why i said champions form, not going to be champions

Bring up whatever stats you like - if we lose to City and Chelsea just before Xmas its the impact on the current team that matters....not whether 'x' years ago someone managed to only take a few points off the top teams and still win a title. Those two games will be the make or break for the season - take 4 or 6 points from those two and we head into the Christmas period riding high. Lose both or get only a point and we'll then see how the squad copes with that below before heading into two away games in quick succession against the Hammers and Barcodes.

i think that, and so many other things in football, depend on such a huge number of variables, that's harsh to say that those 2 games will define the entire season. it depends on injuries, form, sometimes even personal lives of key players. it's a load of things, and while it's obviously two important games, i think we could also win those two and then lose to both west ham and newcastle, and that would be as useless.

what i do think is that we're now better equipped to face those teams with a midfield of flamini and arteta protecting defenders instead of alex song or denilson, to name one reason (ozil, form of ramsey, form of mertesacker amongst others), and that while we used to be regularly beaten simply because we were that worse and predictable as a team, this time i think things even themselves out. will be two cracking games, that's for sure.

[SteveO 35]

Regardless of what any previous fucking stats throw up, what is needed is consistency between August and May......not Feb to November, or any other period staggered over 2 seasons.

If we come through December unscathed then I will allow myself to start believing we could achieve something this season.

i agree with everything you say here (i said so in this very page). which is why i said champions form, not going to be champions

Bring up whatever stats you like - if we lose to City and Chelsea just before Xmas its the impact on the current team that matters....not whether 'x' years ago someone managed to only take a few points off the top teams and still win a title. Those two games will be the make or break for the season - take 4 or 6 points from those two and we head into the Christmas period riding high. Lose both or get only a point and we'll then see how the squad copes with that below before heading into two away games in quick succession against the Hammers and Barcodes.

i think that, and so many other things in football, depend on such a huge number of variables, that's harsh to say that those 2 games will define the entire season. it depends on injuries, form, sometimes even personal lives of key players. it's a load of things, and while it's obviously two important games, i think we could also win those two and then lose to both west ham and newcastle, and that would be as useless.

what i do think is that we're now better equipped to face those teams with a midfield of flamini and arteta protecting defenders instead of alex song or denilson, to name one reason (ozil, form of ramsey, form of mertesacker amongst others), and that while we used to be regularly beaten simply because we were that worse and predictable as a team, this time i think things even themselves out. will be two cracking games, that's for sure.

I just hope he sends out with the right mindset and sticks to what has served us well over the past few months. I was fucking livid with that limpdicked display at Old Trafford a couple of weeks back......as poor as anything we've served up in previous visits there (with the one obvious exception of the game he should have resigned on the back of, when the beautiful banner girls did us proud)

I think a team with a history of trophy wins can bounce back from defeats against their rivals and still overhaul them....United and Chelsea have proved it several times in recent years and we used to as well. The way we recovered from Chelsea knocking us out of the CL and United beating us in the FA Cup in '04 was the mark of confident champions, used to winning trophies. Sadly the current squad doesn't have that depth of experience and my fear is that as the season progresses each defeat will magnify the weaknesses. I sincerely hope I'm fucking wrong and I hope to empty my wallet buying drinks for the whole of the Block 2 Windowlickers whilst belting out THERE'S ONLY ONE ARSENE WENGER in May.......but I have a feeling instead it'll be a nail biting jerk-off to see if we can secure the Virtual Trophy at Carrow Road

[northbank123]

Looking at the state on the rest of the challengers and the manner in which they're all dropping points for fun I don't doubt we have enough quality to mount a serious challenge (with the caveat of adding a striker in Jan). I do have major concerns over our one-track tactics but moreover I'm yet to be convinced that these players have shaken the inferiority complex that we've seen so often in big games in recent years. And if that's the case it's not just that we'll drop points in a few big games a year, we'll bottle it in the latter stages of cup competitions and in the last 10-15 league games.

[falkirk goon]

Consistency between feb-nov that's championship form in the Norwegian league

[Henry Norris 1913]

we might have the results of title challengers but not the performances. december is a big month and if we can prove ourselves against man city and a pretty dodgy chelsea side (get at least 2 points from those games) things will look good, although we will have to have a catostrophic month for wenger to strengthen in january

[clockender1]

We need 4 pts from chavs n city for me to believe we are not chasing 2nd.

[mcdowell42]

Im going to be simplistic on this we are in a good run so ill take each game as it comes,lets worry about chelsea and man city when we play them,chelsea arent playing well and seem inconsistent and even though city are scoring goals they have lost 4 away games all after winning by big margins at home.E njoy the moment if people cant be happy when we are winning well i dont know wht to say.