THE WENGER THREAD

[wibble]

The point is not how many points we have, it's how many points our rivals haven't got.

And who did we play in the 1st 11 games in 2003, TEN years ago...

oh, i'm sorry, i thought it was the progress of Arsenal FC you were worried about.

we are playing like title contenders. end of. we may crash and burn during the season, that's another discussion, but the quality of football being displayed so far AND the results we are getting since february/march are simply those of champions, and if you disagree it's the negativity clouding what you see.

i'm one of those who will never forgive the lack of investment in the last few years, the fact we had manuel fucking almunia as first choice for so long, the fact we sold our best players to "rivals", and the same list you are all about to bring. i asked for wenger's head many times ever since we were fucked at old trafford couple of years back...

...but denying this is a quite excellent team we have now, playing some very good football and deffo capable of winning things, is letting the upset of seasons past influence your vision of this current one. it's how i see it. project "young squad", or project "let's spend little while we pay for the stadium" was unsuccessful and i agree wenger should be responsible for more apologies than he provided us (even though we never fell to liverpool or tottenham's low standards), but still, from what i've seen in the last year or so, i'm a happy panda.

i try to see it this way: wenger's reign as a manager was 50% perfection and joy (the first part), and 50% disappointment and underachievement. looking from a distance, that's not perfect but it's far from criminal, as some here may suggest.

Quantify that statement bg - anybody that has watched our games this season will tell you that our performances have been very patchy and have rarely hit the heights that you would expect from champions. The quality of football is not as good as you seem to suggest that it is so you are wrong on that point for sure. Now if you are talking about grinding out results when not playing well then I agree that is a skill that any title winning team needs to have but I would suggest that a title winning team would have to be turning in good performances on a more regular basis than we are.
There are not too many Gooners who would disagree with the suggestion that we have improved this season but to win trophies, you have to be capable of beating other teams challenging for trophies and we have done nothing to suggest that we are near that level yet

Considering you've come on here after nearly every match this season saying-'missed the first half', 'only caught the last ten minutes/highlights' i'm not sure you're in a position to say that!!

Agree with your point though!

Like some others have said-i'm enjoying our run at the moment, doesn't mean I think we're going to win the league tho and we need to start getting more points from teams challenging for title.

[SteveO 35]

Im going to be simplistic on this we are in a good run so ill take each game as it comes,lets worry about chelsea and man city when we play them,chelsea arent playing well and seem inconsistent and even though city are scoring goals they have lost 4 away games all after winning by big margins at home.E njoy the moment if people cant be happy when we are winning well i dont know wht to say.

Who isn't happy that we are winning? I think people confuse not getting carried away with not being happy. I'm delighted we're top and have enjoyed some of the games this season more than I have for a long time, but it doesn't mean I'm going to start declaring us champions just yet

[clockender1]

Nor does it make up for the last 8 years of frustration.

[armchair]

Have to laugh at those who criticise us for having views that have taken us years to form. Now all of a sudden we should think differently? We have struggled with these demons for a long time.

We have taken disappointment after disappointment, one slap in the face after another, one baffling decision after another. Insult after fukin insult from the man earning 6 million plus to finish fourth. Season after groundhog season.
Yet we still keep coming back for more. Still keep parting with our cash to fund Wenger and his project.

Yet these posters criticise us for having these heart felt and difficult views because after less than half a season we are top of the league and we should now be happy?

[SteveO 35]

Have to laugh at those who criticise us for having views that have taken us years to form. Now all of a sudden we should think differently? We have struggled with these demons for a long time.

We have taken disappointment after disappointment, one slap in the face after another, one baffling decision after another. Insult after fukin insult from the man earning 6 million plus to finish fourth. Season after groundhog season.
Yet we still keep coming back for more. Still keep parting with our cash to fund Wenger and his project.

Yet these posters criticise us for having these heart felt and difficult views because after less than half a season we are top of the league and we should now be happy?

We're all turncoat wankers !

[g88ner]

Who isn't happy that we are winning? I think people confuse not getting carried away with not being happy. I'm delighted we're top and have enjoyed some of the games this season more than I have for a long time, but it doesn't mean I'm going to start declaring us champions just yet

In fairness SteveO, you're as stubborn as a mule ... we discussed this a couple of weeks ago, and you're not even willing to concede there's been any progess, so it's not as if it's simply about winning the league ( which I think is unlikely) but more about heading in the right direction.

It still amazes me that some can't see any progress, as for me it's clear to see even if it doesn't bring success.

[armchair]

the progress sure has been a long time coming.
How many years to get a decent DM? Maybe we'll see some more progress in 2017 when he is forced into getting another decent striking option......

[SteveO 35]

Who isn't happy that we are winning? I think people confuse not getting carried away with not being happy. I'm delighted we're top and have enjoyed some of the games this season more than I have for a long time, but it doesn't mean I'm going to start declaring us champions just yet

In fairness SteveO, you're as stubborn as a mule ... we discussed this a couple of weeks ago, and you're not even willing to concede there's been any progess, so it's not as if it's simply about winning the league ( which I think is unlikely) but more about heading in the right direction.

It still amazes me that some can't see any progress, as for me it's clear to see even if it doesn't bring success.

I did concede 'some' progress in as much as we are more surefooted defensively and also more consistent at beating the lesser teams. I just think tangible progress comes in the form of taking points off those that we rarely take from....

[g88ner]

Who isn't happy that we are winning? I think people confuse not getting carried away with not being happy. I'm delighted we're top and have enjoyed some of the games this season more than I have for a long time, but it doesn't mean I'm going to start declaring us champions just yet

In fairness SteveO, you're as stubborn as a mule ... we discussed this a couple of weeks ago, and you're not even willing to concede there's been any progess, so it's not as if it's simply about winning the league ( which I think is unlikely) but more about heading in the right direction.

It still amazes me that some can't see any progress, as for me it's clear to see even if it doesn't bring success.

I did concede 'some' progress in as much as we are more surefooted defensively and also more consistent at beating the lesser teams. I just think tangible progress comes in the form of taking points off those that we rarely take from....

From memory, you conceding "some" progress was after being pushed on the point (could be wrong... happy to check if you disagree)

Agree with your point about tangible progress, but my definition of tangible progress isn't restricted to games vs. Citeh, chavs and United. I think consistency against the rest of the league is also a sign of tangible progress.

In recent seasons, we've often bemoaned the amount of points we've lost to teams we should be beating and questioned the players' desire and attitude for not being focused in those games. But look at the results since March - that's what? 25+ league games in which we've shown a remarkable amount of consistency?

And yes, we've struggled against the top 3 teams (and that is certainly a barrier we need to overcome) but consistency in this league (especially away from home) is progress for sure. We're going places, whether it's Newcastle, Cardiff or wherever and coming back with points... more points than our rivals.

I think that progress is great to see and I don't think enough people on here are giving it the credit it deserves!

[SteveO 35]

I just think you can only measure real progress over entire seasons. You say we've progressed but what if during the second of the season we fall back down the table and finish 4th.......would the progress then be regression? Or would it simply be that at the back end of last season and the first part of this one, we didn't have our toughest games and really we're just the same as before over 38 games? That's how I see it anyway

And before some boring old fucker that can't be bothered to read properly suggests I'm not happy at us winning games and being top of the league, then you just don't get it. I am fucking delighted we're top and even more delighted that those wankers from down the road are struggling whilst we are sitting top........if it finishes this way I'll be positively orgasmic !

[g88ner]

I just think you can only measure real progress over entire seasons. You say we've progressed but what if during the second of the season we fall back down the table and finish 4th.......would the progress then be regression? Or would it simply be that at the back end of last season and the first part of this one, we didn't have our toughest games and really we're just the same as before over 38 games? That's how I see it anyway

And before some boring old fucker that can't be bothered to read properly suggests I'm not happy at us winning games and being top of the league, then you just don't get it. I am fucking delighted we're top and even more delighted that those wankers from down the road are struggling whilst we are sitting top........if it finishes this way I'll be positively orgasmic !

Hmm... that's an interesting one.

Of course you're right BUT that's being ultra conservative in the extreme and requires no knowledge of Arsenal, or anything really, and only requires a functioning brain capable of making basic comparisons.

However, lets face facts... we're sad individuals who dedicate a ridiculous amount of time to watching almost every minute of every season that our beloved Arsenal play

Surely, we are well placed to make a judgement on whether we're witnessing progress/improvement or not?? - any bloke (or female ) with no prior knowledge of Arsenal (and never seen a game in their life) could judge progress on simply comparing results from one season to another.

I genuinely believe, based on what I'm seeing with my own eyes, that we've progressed from previous seasons. That may or may not be supported by league position (or trophies) at the end of the season but I'm more than happy to say 2013 has been a year of progress for Arsenal. Beats the shit out of 2011 and 2012 for me.

[Theoperator]

I am sure that I will be shot down for saying this but I am not sure that some here can realise how demoralising it must have been for the rest of the team season after season seeing top players and friends move on- FFS we have lost 2 captains at the start of the last 2 seasons. I know that maybe Wenger could have done things differently, but clearly Cesc was going to go come what may, and Judas as well, with the sight of 250K a week wasnt going to turn that down, however pi**ed off that makes us all fell. We just dont have the riches of the oil Barons.

For all us Gooners it was sure demoralising, maybe some here still are suffering from terminal demoralisation from those losses.

To pretend anyone can pick the team up, and make progress immediately after such losses is plain daft.

Likewise anyone not seeing an improvement since the later stages of last season is similarly afflicted.

The way our midfield wove themselves around the pitch today was plain magic at times. Makes me think back to earlier Wenger times.

After Wenger the next longest serving manager in the PL is Pardew, 3 years- fucking ridiculous, I have little doubt that The Chavs would have actually achieved masses more if they had stuck to a manager for more than a nanosecond, likewise it may not be a coincidence that the only team in the top 4 last season to hold onto their manager is leading the PL. It must take surely at least a season to get your bearings.

[LDB]

Have to laugh at those who criticise us for having views that have taken us years to form. Now all of a sudden we should think differently? We have struggled with these demons for a long time.

Surely views should be flexible, especially with something so fast-moving as modern football? I have no problems saying I'm much more positive about the club and the manager then I was 12 months ago. We've found a formula that works, the players are battling for each other and the manager and coaches seem to be getting the best out of them. We've removed lots of complacent non-performers from the dressing room and brought in world class talent.

I've always said that no matter how much I criticise Wenger that if he starts getting it right again I'll hold my hands up and say it. It seems churlish in the extreme to spend years demanding the manager do this and do that and then when he does it you're just going to grumble and groan and wait for it all to go wrong because it "took you years" to form those views. We had 5 rank average seasons, sorry to be dismissive but when we have fans talking of "terminal demoralisation" you can only laugh.

Having said all that, as things stand we're still an injury to Giroud or Mertesacker away from being deep in the shit. Giroud we can potentially sign a back-up for but the Mert is irreplaceable in the team, time to pray.

[TurnipMasher]

I genuinely believe, based on what I'm seeing with my own eyes, that we've progressed from previous seasons. That may or may not be supported by league position (or trophies) at the end of the season but I'm more than happy to say 2013 has been a year of progress for Arsenal. Beats the shit out of 2011 and 2012 for me.

100% agree with this, even if we finish 4th again at least we've shown some fight this season.

But I still want Wenger out.

[northbank123]

I genuinely believe, based on what I'm seeing with my own eyes, that we've progressed from previous seasons. That may or may not be supported by league position (or trophies) at the end of the season but I'm more than happy to say 2013 has been a year of progress for Arsenal. Beats the shit out of 2011 and 2012 for me.

100% agree with this, even if we finish 4th again at least we've shown some fight this season.

But I still want Wenger out.

Hardly. We're certainly looking a lot better this year and although I don't see us winning the league because of our lack of options up front and apparent inferiority complex against the big teams we're certainly showing signs of progress - although this will ultimately have to be measured over the course of a whole season.

Last two seasons we've been 10+ points off the leaders at this stage who have eventually gone on to amass 89 points. This year we're the ones clear at the top and it certainly doesn't seem like anyone is going to be troubling 90 points. Given that playing well for part of the season has never been a problem for us would capitulating from here to finish 4th (especially considering Spurs are even more cack than usual) really show any fight?