THE WENGER THREAD

[augie]

2. The formation the other team is using - this is obviously a concept that is totally alien to wenker but playing the same system against Bradford as you do against Barcelona is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen in recent years

funny you should say that. barcelona, real madrid, dortmund, bayern, often play same formation/tactics against the shite teams in their leagues and against top teams in the champions league. also funny that after 17 years having wenger as our manager, there's still this discussion. we've heard him many times saying he sets his team to play to their strengths, rarely (or never) changing anything depending on opposition. and that was never a problem in '98, '02, '04, when we played the same 4-4-2 be it against small sides in the beer cup or man united at old trafford.

i would also love a bielsa type manager who goes crazy on formations, but we should probably know by now that that's not wenger's style of management, and while he surely got many things wrong in the last few years i don't think it's got to do with that style of his, i think our biggest problem was lack of real quality players on the pitch.

Isnt that the crux of it though.......if you don't have the quality of players needed to overpower the opposition (as we don't) then don't you need to alter your system in a bid to negate the opposition players and tactics ? It is naïve (to say the least) if you send a team out against a superior team without giving any thought or instruction on how to nullify them or their best players but yet it is something that we constantly still do We may well have got away with it on most occasions in the past because we had players capable of doing so (which backs up my number 1 point above) but we no longer can and we (wenker) has to wake up to that fact and alter his plans accordingly. If other managers can tactically prepare their teams to play us then why cant we do the same ?

I know that many fans have gone through a seismic change in positions regarding wenker on the back of this winning run but it absolutely stuns me that their u turn has stretched to now defending the man over decisions that we were all going ballistic over at the time If the decisions were crazy then, how can they be right now ?

[augie]

Sincere question.....why is it that wenker is getting the credit for our top of the table results ? Same formation, same tactics and by and large the same players so what has he done that has turned things around ?

I think you're trying too hard to discredit the manager, Augie. In fact, it's very mean spirited indeed!

It's his team; his players, playing a formation that he chose. Why shouldn't he get credit?? - or maybe he shouldn't get stick when things go wrong either?

I love the old saying that "even a broken clock is right twice a day" and for me it by and large (not entirely) applies here - I give credit to how he stood loyal to ramsey (and to a lesser degree giroud and Chesney) but on the flip side he has overseen a horrendous slide in ambitions and performances within our club to the point that he is now being lauded for correcting problems that he and he alone has created

[armchair]

Like last season....
"If Arsenal finish 4th it'll be Wengers greatest ever achievement"



Look into my eyes, look into my eyes....
When I click my fingers you will wake up, Wenger will be a genius and you will remember nothing about the last 8 seasons.......

[kiwomya]

Like last season....
"If Arsenal finish 4th it'll be Wengers greatest ever achievement"



Look into my eyes, look into my eyes....
When I click my fingers you will wake up, Wenger will be a genius and you will remember nothing about the last 8 seasons.......

So when we won the league in 88/89 you were furious and reminded everyone of the years gone by without winning anything?

[augie]

Like last season....
"If Arsenal finish 4th it'll be Wengers greatest ever achievement"



Look into my eyes, look into my eyes....
When I click my fingers you will wake up, Wenger will be a genius and you will remember nothing about the last 8 seasons.......

So when we won the league in 88/89 you were furious and reminded everyone of the years gone by without winning anything?

Missing. The. Point - when was the last time (if ever) a manager of our club has been given new (and improved) contracts based on 8 years of failure ? When, if ever, has our club tolerated 8 years of failure without replacing the man overseeing that failure ? Furious about previous failures ? No but then GG hadn't presided over 8 years of failure back in '89 and had done nothing that required redemption - in fact the reality was that GG had taken over a stagnant club going nowhere and had re-instilled it's sense of identity and pride so as a club we were a club that was on the rise and had won a league on the back of it. As soon as that rise had stalled and appeared to be turning into a decline, the manager was ruthlessly axed and a change in direction was instigated - could do with a similar course of action now

[SteveO 35]

I wonder if Augie will ever become a 'turncoat wanker' ?

ONE ARSENE WENGER.........THERE'S ONLY ONE ARSENE WENGER

[GranadaJoe]

I can't agree that we're playing the same tactics as last year or that AW hasn't started to show some flexibilty.
In some games he's played with two DMs, in others one. Our 'wide' players have a lot more positional flexiblity than last year and we're rotating our central midfielders.

I still think AW is tactically lacking and it's time for a change, but I'm happy to acknowledge improvements where I see them.

I agree that Ozil will have lifted the squad and he will also be claiming plenty of the opposition's attention.

We look better at the back (maybe Bould is having an effect).

Flamini has been an important part, but it wasn't just luck that brought himback.

I just hope AW doesn't go back to the rigid formation as last year once Theo, Poldi and the Ox are fit.

[kiwomya]

Like last season....
"If Arsenal finish 4th it'll be Wengers greatest ever achievement"



Look into my eyes, look into my eyes....
When I click my fingers you will wake up, Wenger will be a genius and you will remember nothing about the last 8 seasons.......

So when we won the league in 88/89 you were furious and reminded everyone of the years gone by without winning anything?

Missing. The. Point - when was the last time (if ever) a manager of our club has been given new (and improved) contracts based on 8 years of failure ? When, if ever, has our club tolerated 8 years of failure without replacing the man overseeing that failure ? Furious about previous failures ? No but then GG hadn't presided over 8 years of failure back in '89 and had done nothing that required redemption - in fact the reality was that GG had taken over a stagnant club going nowhere and had re-instilled it's sense of identity and pride so as a club we were a club that was on the rise and had won a league on the back of it. As soon as that rise had stalled and appeared to be turning into a decline, the manager was ruthlessly axed and a change in direction was instigated - could do with a similar course of action now

I think you're forgetting why Graham was "ruthlessly axed".

For the record, are you saying you'd change managers now if you could?

[armchair]

Sincere question.....why is it that wenker is getting the credit for our top of the table results ? Same formation, same tactics and by and large the same players so what has he done that has turned things around ?

I think you're trying too hard to discredit the manager, Augie. In fact, it's very mean spirited indeed!

It's his team; his players, playing a formation that he chose. Why shouldn't he get credit?? - or maybe he shouldn't get stick when things go wrong either?

I'd give Wenger credit for sticking with Ramsey. And probably by extension the likes of Wilshere who sees Ramsey becoming the finished article and adding goals so he ups his game too.

No credit from me whatsoever for Giroud. I dont think Giroud is good enough to be the first choice striker for a Prem team that wants to actually compete for the title. Wenger fucked about with the Higuain and Suarez deals and left us with Giroud who I think (and I believe Wenger thinks too) should be a bench option. Personally I think Rooney would be fantastic for us.

Wenger deserves credit for bringing Chesney through with the caveat that he only got the chance that he wouldn't have got otherwise through Flappy and Almunias injuries.

He also deserves credit for signing a DM (which we all have been begging him to do for years) again with the caveat that he only went for Flamini because he was free. Arteta practically signed himself as if you remember Wenger let that deal slide only for Arteta to force it through by taking a pay cut at the last minute. Now we have options to play either one or both at DM.

Good (and brave) decision by Wenger to drop Vermaelen and settle for Mert and Kos at CB. No arguments or criticism there.

I dont believe Wenger signed Ozil or if he did there was pressure on him to sign a marquee player after the Higuain and Suarez embarrassments. So no credit there from me Im afraid. I do agree with augie though that the Ozil signing has also had a fantastic positive effect throughout the squad. And it does show other teams that we mean business.

There also is the contributory fact that UTD, City and Chelsea have new managers and are in somewhat of a transitional period. Afraid Wenger cant get any credit for those teams not performing as they should but you can only beat the teams in front of you and if others fall behind - good.

I like the appointment of Bouldy too. Him and Wenger are visibly getting along much better this season. How much of an effect hes having on our defensive stability is hard to say.

Unfortunately all of this does not negate the frustration of being "2 or 3 players short" every season. Or the stubborn egotistical pursuit of a "socialist wage structure" and "project" that has seen us slide from contenders to also-rans

[SteveO 35]

ONE ARSENE WENGER..........THERE'S ONLY ONE ARSENE WENGER

[augie]

I can't agree that we're playing the same tactics as last year or that AW hasn't started to show some flexibilty.
In some games he's played with two DMs, in others one. Our 'wide' players have a lot more positional flexiblity than last year and we're rotating our central midfielders.

I still think AW is tactically lacking and it's time for a change, but I'm happy to acknowledge improvements where I see them.

I agree that Ozil will have lifted the squad and he will also be claiming plenty of the opposition's attention.

We look better at the back (maybe Bould is having an effect).

Flamini has been an important part, but it wasn't just luck that brought himback.

I just hope AW doesn't go back to the rigid formation as last year once Theo, Poldi and the Ox are fit.

Who are the two DM's ? If, as I suspect, you are labelling arteta as a DM then I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong - arteta was never a DM before he came to us and creativity was actually his main asset, but because wenker refused to buy a proper DM and because he is the most tactically aware and responsible midfielder we had, he got pushed into playing that role which he did selflessly for the team

[augie]

Like last season....
"If Arsenal finish 4th it'll be Wengers greatest ever achievement"



Look into my eyes, look into my eyes....
When I click my fingers you will wake up, Wenger will be a genius and you will remember nothing about the last 8 seasons.......

So when we won the league in 88/89 you were furious and reminded everyone of the years gone by without winning anything?

Missing. The. Point - when was the last time (if ever) a manager of our club has been given new (and improved) contracts based on 8 years of failure ? When, if ever, has our club tolerated 8 years of failure without replacing the man overseeing that failure ? Furious about previous failures ? No but then GG hadn't presided over 8 years of failure back in '89 and had done nothing that required redemption - in fact the reality was that GG had taken over a stagnant club going nowhere and had re-instilled it's sense of identity and pride so as a club we were a club that was on the rise and had won a league on the back of it. As soon as that rise had stalled and appeared to be turning into a decline, the manager was ruthlessly axed and a change in direction was instigated - could do with a similar course of action now

I think you're forgetting why Graham was "ruthlessly axed".

For the record, are you saying you'd change managers now if you could?

Yes......Yes I absolutely am Again I will ask how it is that we are supposed to ignore years of mismanagement on the back of 3 months worth of good results I do not believe for 1 second that wenker is good enough to lead this squad to the title nor do I believe that he is ruthless, aggressive and ambitious enough to spend the Wonga necessary to bring in quality we need to bring glory back to our club again and it saddens me to say that I believe that a manager like klopp, if he was manager right now, would be canny enough to not sit on his laurels in this position and would be able to guide this squad into the winners podium again

[LDB]

I can't agree that we're playing the same tactics as last year or that AW hasn't started to show some flexibilty.
In some games he's played with two DMs, in others one. Our 'wide' players have a lot more positional flexiblity than last year and we're rotating our central midfielders.

I still think AW is tactically lacking and it's time for a change, but I'm happy to acknowledge improvements where I see them.

I agree that Ozil will have lifted the squad and he will also be claiming plenty of the opposition's attention.

We look better at the back (maybe Bould is having an effect).

Flamini has been an important part, but it wasn't just luck that brought himback.

I just hope AW doesn't go back to the rigid formation as last year once Theo, Poldi and the Ox are fit.

Who are the two DM's ? If, as I suspect, you are labelling arteta as a DM then I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong - arteta was never a DM before he came to us and creativity was actually his main asset, but because wenker refused to buy a proper DM and because he is the most tactically aware and responsible midfielder we had, he got pushed into playing that role which he did selflessly for the team

Whether you think that's his natural position or not that is most definitely the position he has been playing and been doing quite well in it. He was a creative midfielder for Everton but then he wasn't in a team with Ozil, Cazorla, Wilshere and Rosicky to compete with for that role.

All good players adapt their play as they get older. He has played very well for us as a defensive midfielder so in what sense is that not his position?

[augie]

I can't agree that we're playing the same tactics as last year or that AW hasn't started to show some flexibilty.
In some games he's played with two DMs, in others one. Our 'wide' players have a lot more positional flexiblity than last year and we're rotating our central midfielders.

I still think AW is tactically lacking and it's time for a change, but I'm happy to acknowledge improvements where I see them.

I agree that Ozil will have lifted the squad and he will also be claiming plenty of the opposition's attention.

We look better at the back (maybe Bould is having an effect).

Flamini has been an important part, but it wasn't just luck that brought himback.

I just hope AW doesn't go back to the rigid formation as last year once Theo, Poldi and the Ox are fit.

Who are the two DM's ? If, as I suspect, you are labelling arteta as a DM then I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong - arteta was never a DM before he came to us and creativity was actually his main asset, but because wenker refused to buy a proper DM and because he is the most tactically aware and responsible midfielder we had, he got pushed into playing that role which he did selflessly for the team

Whether you think that's his natural position or not that is most definitely the position he has been playing and been doing quite well in it. He was a creative midfielder for Everton but then he wasn't in a team with Ozil, Cazorla, Wilshere and Rosicky to compete with for that role.

All good players adapt their play as they get older. He has played very well for us as a defensive midfielder so in what sense is that not his position?

Arteta has been my favourite player for the past few seasons so in no way am I knocking him in the slightest - what I am saying is that he is not a natural DM and has had to learn/assume that responsibility and that, being a man who totally buys into the team ethos, he has done so without a word of complaint

[SteveO 35]

We've waited too long for this BBQ......FFS, when is our lord and master going to make us all happy and sign that deal