As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
MrT wrote:Difference being is my hindsight is based on fact, yours is based on your preconceived notion of success and potentially winning something in the future...Football is a results business, you are judged on your levels of success. Those levels of success are determined by big shiny things called trophies, not finances. If said manager does not win trophies for an extended period of time he cannot claim to be successful and if you are not successful then you are a failure. I feel like I'm explaining the basics of success and failure to a child.
You're not sounding like a *word censored*, but a pedantic *word censored* is more apt.
hehe, my hindsight is based on my notion of something happening in the future? er
I agree that more trophies over the last few years would have been nice although I do not, as I have said on many occasions, believe that we have failed. I think we have done so much better than 'average' as people say, we have not 'failed' but have kept our self above 88 other teams in the leagues, hundreds across Europe, and have not been 'cash' rich until now. We have not had loads of money to spend and have in fact been harranged by market forces but have held our own very admirably.
To me that is Fact. To you Fact is that we haven't won anything therefore Arsene should go. I can see that point of view, maybe I can't accept it but I can understand how some might think that. because I don't think that does not mean my thoughts are wrong, but you have decided they are.
It is clear that we won't agree but it makes neither of us right or wrong, only in our own minds.
I had a debate along similar lines with a friend of a friend in the pub post FA cup game last week. We both argued our views and both accepted we weren't going to change each otehrs and both responsibly got drunk and said we'd see each other next time. Neither of us called the other a child though
I believe you believe what you say you believe but I believe your belief is misguided, exactly, I assume, as you do mine.
Christ, you know what I mean. I was linking your perceived level of success through hindsight and that we might win something in the future based off that, a valid point I would have to say. You really are a pedant.
What's more distressing is Mcdowells news that Baba and Red are not coming.
MrT wrote:Difference being is my hindsight is based on fact, yours is based on your preconceived notion of success and potentially winning something in the future...Football is a results business, you are judged on your levels of success. Those levels of success are determined by big shiny things called trophies, not finances. If said manager does not win trophies for an extended period of time he cannot claim to be successful and if you are not successful then you are a failure. I feel like I'm explaining the basics of success and failure to a child.
You're not sounding like a *word censored*, but a pedantic *word censored* is more apt.
hehe, my hindsight is based on my notion of something happening in the future? er
I agree that more trophies over the last few years would have been nice although I do not, as I have said on many occasions, believe that we have failed. I think we have done so much better than 'average' as people say, we have not 'failed' but have kept our self above 88 other teams in the leagues, hundreds across Europe, and have not been 'cash' rich until now. We have not had loads of money to spend and have in fact been harranged by market forces but have held our own very admirably.
To me that is Fact. To you Fact is that we haven't won anything therefore Arsene should go. I can see that point of view, maybe I can't accept it but I can understand how some might think that. because I don't think that does not mean my thoughts are wrong, but you have decided they are.
It is clear that we won't agree but it makes neither of us right or wrong, only in our own minds.
I had a debate along similar lines with a friend of a friend in the pub post FA cup game last week. We both argued our views and both accepted we weren't going to change each otehrs and both responsibly got drunk and said we'd see each other next time. Neither of us called the other a child though
I believe you believe what you say you believe but I believe your belief is misguided, exactly, I assume, as you do mine.
Christ, you know what I mean. I was linking your perceived level of success through hindsight and that we might win something in the future based off that, a valid point I would have to say. You really are a pedant.
What's more distressing is Mcdowells news that Baba and Red are not coming.
MrT wrote:All this waffle about hindsight.....YAWN
He should be sacked solely for not winning fuck all in nearly 9 years. How is this fundamentally lost on these AKBs?
But football isn't just about winning trophies is it...
Have a day off mate. What do you come on here for if it's not have a discussion about the club?
What's there to discuss oh wise one? There is no in-depth constructive discussion with AKBs. Their views are set in stone and they will not budge out of loyalty to their dear leader.
I remember how Babatunde used to take the piss out of you constantly, I understand why.
Kiwomya - can you clarify if you were the one referred to once as one of "Arsene's little helpers"?
I think Kebabatunde may well have included me in said group
DB10GOONER wrote:
And yet AKB's/Wengerites/sheep ( ) will tell you that Arsene has done an amazing job challenging for the title (from August to January) and winning the virtual trophy - considering the lack of money he's had at his disposal!
I've said it for years. We've always had the money to compete in the transfer market. It's just been very badly misspent by Arsene on bumper wages, contract extensions and pay rises for shite and average players that haven't earned it.
This AKB has certainly not told anyone that he has done an amazing job in challenging for the title (from August to January)... etc etc
This AKB has clearly stated that he believes Arsene has done a good job full stop and to bring it down to the current short term situation is, I believe, nothing any AKB has said. It is something people who disagree with us AKBs say that we said even when we haven't. it is part of the defence mechanism folk have as they start to realise they are, indeed, on the wrong side of the carrot
I actually do not feel we will necessarily win anything this year and our possible failure to do so will mean nothing more than we didn't 'quite' have enough, but I do think we will win things in due course and that we 'could' win something this year.
I don't argue that at times money could have been better spent but then with hindsight that is easy, as it also is to see the other side and that is a lot of money has been extremely well spent, well managed as have players and tactics and the team as a hole... either that or we've been very very lucky and if only we had a good manager we'd be on top of all of the european leqagues at the same time and the world champions and also in with a shout at the world championship darts title i guess.
I maintain that, in 9 years time, we will look back and will have won things ... that is what I believe...
I maintain that it will be because and not inspite of Arsene and find it hard to understand why a few others just can't see that
I maintain that I am clearly superior to most people and my opinion is the only one that has any validity because of that
I maintain the right to ignore or rubbish any opinion that makes me feel uneasy or disagrees with my own
Apology accepted.
The bit highlighted in red is the bit that gets me with AKBs/Wengerites. Reading it you would forgive me for saying it appears you are suggesting he made one or two "one-off" mistakes in previous contract dealings, that it's easy for us to complain now with hindsight but at the time it wasn't possible to say he was making a mistake. I just cannot agree with that. Arsene repeatedly made this same mistake, season after season after season, often extending players contracts and giving them unearned pay rises long long after it was apparent to every man and his dog that those players were not good enough. It wasn't a one-off or two. It was repeatedly making the same mistake and misspending the money that he always claimed we never had and used as a defence for not spending on new quality signings and actually properly competing for the PL and CL. Anyone can make a mistake. That is not the problem. The problem is repeating the same mistake, not learning from it. In my job, if I misspent money like that repeatedly, I would be fired. Most people would.
I agree and disagree about repeating the same mistake. I agree for sure that for a period some mistakes were not acted upon (the Almunia goalkeeping fiasco, for one) but I would suggest at least for the past 2 years these have been worked on and to a degree they've been corrected.
I think it's widely accepted that the club are happy with Wenger's performance so I think that in itself explains why he hasn't been sacked.
Er, not through any decisive action from the manager the majority of players were loaned out till their contracts ran out cos we couldn't shift them -
MrT wrote:All this waffle about hindsight.....YAWN
He should be sacked solely for not winning fuck all in nearly 9 years. How is this fundamentally lost on these AKBs?
But football isn't just about winning trophies is it...
Have a day off mate. What do you come on here for if it's not have a discussion about the club?
What's there to discuss oh wise one? There is no in-depth constructive discussion with AKBs. Their views are set in stone and they will not budge out of loyalty to their dear leader.
I remember how Babatunde used to take the piss out of you constantly, I understand why.
Kiwomya - can you clarify if you were the one referred to once as one of "Arsene's little helpers"?
I think Kebabatunde may well have included me in said group
To get constantly ridiculed by babatunde of all people shows you are probably an absolute tosser.
kiwomya wrote:
I agree and disagree about repeating the same mistake. I agree for sure that for a period some mistakes were not acted upon (the Almunia goalkeeping fiasco, for one) but I would suggest at least for the past 2 years these have been worked on and to a degree they've been corrected.
I think it's widely accepted that the club are happy with Wenger's performance so I think that in itself explains why he hasn't been sacked.
Er, not through any decisive action from the manager the majority of players were loaned out till their contracts ran out cos we couldn't shift them -
Oh yeah I know some of the players were at the end but still we terminated the contracts of Chamakh, Denilson and wasn't Andre Santos also released? We also sold Gervinho.
We've added much needed "proven" talent over the last few years (Arteta, Mertesacker, Cazorla, Podolski, Flamini, Ozil etc etc) whereas in the past would have instead signed young players with potential.
We finally went out and signed a massive name in world football with Ozil. Would these things have happened in the years before? I personally don't see it.
kiwomya wrote:
I agree and disagree about repeating the same mistake. I agree for sure that for a period some mistakes were not acted upon (the Almunia goalkeeping fiasco, for one) but I would suggest at least for the past 2 years these have been worked on and to a degree they've been corrected.
I think it's widely accepted that the club are happy with Wenger's performance so I think that in itself explains why he hasn't been sacked.
Er, not through any decisive action from the manager the majority of players were loaned out till their contracts ran out cos we couldn't shift them -
Oh yeah I know some of the players were at the end but still we terminated the contracts of Chamakh, Denilson and wasn't Andre Santos also released? We also sold Gervinho.
We've added much needed "proven" talent over the last few years (Arteta, Mertesacker, Cazorla, Podolski, Flamini, Ozil etc etc) whereas in the past would have instead signed young players with potential.
We finally went out and signed a massive name in world football with Ozil. Would these things have happened in the years before? I personally don't see it.
Agree with that. Things have moved on a bit from the dark days of giving Flapper, Vela, Bendy Bollocks, Denilson, Djourou etc, 5 year deals - thank Christ for that. I think the biggest frustration is the fact there's always one "elephant in the room" position to sort out. Before Chesney it was a keeper and at different points its been a CDM and a CB. Now we've finally got a bit more optionality in those positions we're threadbare up front.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if eventually do sign a decent striker (but not this window) but at the same time let Sagna leave and then spend the next 12 months wondering why Jenkinson doesn't look the part when he has to play 40+ games a season
