As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
flash gunner wrote:I remember Steve Bould doing David Hirst in a tackle from behind (ooohh matron)
but seriously i think Bould broke Hirsts leg on 2 seperate occasions with very hard tackling and at the time i had no probs with Boulds tough defensive qualities he didnt set out to hurt Hirst but im sure wanted to let him know he was there and genuinely went for the ball but went through Hirst to get it. I think we have to be careful not hypocritical about these types of tackles we used to commit some of them
See the thing is that these guys are made of rock now. You think that Arsenal players are little that's why they get injured? Theses guys are trained and their bodies honed to within an inch of their life. They will have NO ounce of fat of them. All these old (auld for you micks) fellas saying it's because they cant take a tackle and have no "mucsle" on them ffs lads have a word they are made of steel. If one of these lads crunched through you, you'd be fucked for weeks.
I am not saying Shawcross set out to break Aaron's leg, but he did set out to "let him know he's there" which is fair enough. But not, when he's snapped his leg in half. I agree with AW on this one. Is it coincedence that we've had three broen legs in 4 years ?
I agree with all of that and i think Shawcross' tackle was reckless at best and the injury shocked and appalled me but it wasnt that long ago i loved Bould for some similar challenges
flash gunner wrote:I remember Steve Bould doing David Hirst in a tackle from behind (ooohh matron)
but seriously i think Bould broke Hirsts leg on 2 seperate occasions with very hard tackling and at the time i had no probs with Boulds tough defensive qualities he didnt set out to hurt Hirst but im sure wanted to let him know he was there and genuinely went for the ball but went through Hirst to get it. I think we have to be careful not hypocritical about these types of tackles we used to commit some of them
See the thing is that these guys are made of rock now. You think that Arsenal players are little that's why they get injured? Theses guys are trained and their bodies honed to within an inch of their life. They will have NO ounce of fat of them. All these old (auld for you micks) fellas saying it's because they cant take a tackle and have no "mucsle" on them ffs lads have a word they are made of steel. If one of these lads crunched through you, you'd be fucked for weeks.
I am not saying Shawcross set out to break Aaron's leg, but he did set out to "let him know he's there" which is fair enough. But not, when he's snapped his leg in half. I agree with AW on this one. Is it coincedence that we've had three broen legs in 4 years ?
I agree with all of that and i think Shawcross' tackle was reckless at best and the injury shocked and appalled me but it wasnt that long ago i loved Bould for some similar challenges
Fair play Flash, but when did Bouldy snap someone's leg ?
And Shawcross has done it TWICE ? I am not crucifying him, and nor would I but t does seem a bit odd
highburyJD wrote:bergkamp-genius that post is all very well
but how many times have we left opposition players with their legs hanging off?
in my era (end of howe, GG + wenger) I can't remember a single tackle like that
worst I can remember is Davis breaking that racist southampton 'hard' man's jaw all over his face (cotteril?) and that's totally different
(maybe I've forgotten something)
I can't remember a single manure or chav player being taken out like abou, edu or rambo
You can't remember because like me you don't really care about injuries and broken legs to players of other clubs, therefore your awareness of the extent of other clubs injuries and injury problems is very low..hence the persecution complex...
For instance if i told you that Man United between 2002 and now have suffered 6 first team broken legs, in comparison to our 4, or 5 if you want to include Diaby's ankle and 4 if you want to exclude Diaby breaking his own team mates leg ..
I would imagine that must surprise you since you seem to think that it's only our players that get broken legs, so it would surprise you to know that in the same period the evil Blackburn had 4 broken legs, two in the space of a few days , on two occasions , i can't even begin to imagine the conspiracy theories that would have been thrown around had that happened to us. I'll bet you didn't have any conspiracy theories regarding Blackburn being specifically picked on by the opposition, in fact i'll bet, like me, you weren't even aware it happened, and this is the crux of the problem we only really give a shit what happens at our own club, so we tend to think it's only happening to us and it's always worse for us than everyone else when in reality other clubs and fans are going through similar things.
Of course it doesn't help when our manager has been fuelling the fire for the last 4-5 years with his 'infamy infamy' speech every week, to cover up his own mistakes..the speech has had it's desired effect he's got people believing everyone is against us ..
I think that misses the point some what. Manchester United may have had broken bones but to the same extent? The worst I can think of from them was Alan Smith and that was not through a challenge. The worst challenge I remember seeing on a player of theres was the Rodrigo Possebon challenge but he escaped without a broken leg.That was an awful challenge and the type that should be punished more! The young lad was fortunate.
I can't remember them suffering compound fractures apart from Smith (wasn't via a challenge) or suffering the scenes that we have witnessed with Eduardo and Ramsey where there leg is being held together by a sock! Again with Blackburn the Savage one was from a reckless challenge but was again not a compound fracture, and the Andre Oojer one he fell awkwardly hardly the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the only two scenes when a player has had there leg hanging after a challenge was Eduardo and Ramsey.
Could you please clarify your points on broken bones? There is a big difference between a hairline fracture for example and a compound fracture? How many compound fractures or open dislocations of their ankles have these teams suffered?
Exiled Gooner makes a good point as well it's ok to say "you will kick Arsenal" you don't even need to mention the ball! This is true of all teams as Fletcher of Manure said he was going to kick Fabregas last year, no mention of the ball. We are the only team this happens to!
My Dad always goes on about a tackle that Arsenal's Steve Bould made on SWFC's David Hirst.
He says it was the tackle that ended his career, he never the same player since.
We arent whiter than white thats all im saying and Steve Bould is one of my fave players from that era
It's very hard to find a team that is whiter than white. We certainly are not. But for the original point of this thread I don't think it's OTT. Shawcross' was not the worst of the challenges (Dan Smith take a bow) but is part of an accumulation of this tactic where teams don't even have to worry about the ball against it us it just their foot to our legs. And we all know that with this it will happen to another of our players sooner or later......
euphoricone wrote:its like that skinhead in THIS IS ENGLAND. He beat up the jamaican, almost killed him, and then starts crying .
Exactly like that!
I saw this comment on one of the Guardian articles. This sums up my feelings perfectly (not my own words btw) :
OK, having waited the entire weekend for a thread, it looks like we'll have to use this one.
No malice in the tackle? No, not the malice of a player who intends to break an opponent's leg, but definitely the malice of one who, egged on by his manager, the pundits and fans, is happy to risk it.
This sort of malice is endemic to English football, but it is veiled in euphemisms so you don't have to notice it's there. It's OK to 'get physical' with Arsenal (euphemism for kick them) because, 'if you let them play they'll walk all over you' (euphemism for win by means of superior skill). In fact kicking Arsenal - indeed any side with skilful foreign players - is more than OK; it's a positive virtue since it ensures the Birmingham's, the Blackburns and the Stokes can continue to thrive. Imagine if they were penalised for dangerous and incompetent tackles, imagine if they had to rely on foreign eccentricities like scoring from open play: they'd be relegated, God forbid, and the quintessential Englishness of the Premier League would be lost.
'Get in their faces! It's a man's game! They don't like it up 'em, the wimpish foreigners who play tippy-tappy pretty football and dive their way to success!' No malice? Look at the language. 'Pretty' equates Arsenal with women or possibly gays (bad things to be); diving is something the honest English don't do. It's language that oozes with hatred - a hatred that's a close relative of the xenophobia and homophobia, which are pervasive in English football as well. Truth is, the English don't value what they quaintly refer to as 'technical' skill. Craft, creativity? They're an incitement to violence. It's the non-technical skills, the up-for-it, incompetent challenges that shatter leg bones - but only every now and again, stop whining you wimps! - that are fondly regarded in England.
Sky didn't show the tackle lest its precious viewers sick up their burgers. Shame the Arsenal players can't be similarly spared the unpleasant sight of splintered bones protruding through the skin. Shame that three times in four years they've have had to see a team-mate's foot virtually severed from his ankle, so that the Premiership's brave, gritty underdogs can continue to pick up the points. Shame that Diaby and Eduardo were out for over a year and still haven't recovered their former fitness and skill. Shame for young Aaron Ramsey, but never mind, as Stan Collymore assures us, he'll come back better and stronger. Really, Shawcross, a gentle giant - just look at his tears! - has almost done him a favour. Yes, the tears, the piteous suffering of the unfortunate defender - that's what we are shown; not the pain, the blood, the confidence destroyed, the ruined career, the years lost from the game.
So happily there's nothing amiss and it can be business as usual - till the next time Alan Green needs to tell us there was no malice intended because the defender 'isn't that sort of player' and the victim, 'who was a bit quick for him', has really no one to blame but himself. An unfortunate accident, just one of those things. Well, three actually on Arsenal players alone, but who's counting. Not the media, that's for sure. Nor the fans who rejoiced to see the whining Wenger and his diving foreigners getting their just desserts yet again.
'Cheating, cheating Arsenal,' the Stoke fans sang when Ramsey was carried to the ambulance, 'You've only got one leg!' No, no malice at all.
I thought that article was bloody excellent, Digger.
Cheers.
When certain teams publicly state that they are going to "rough Arsenal up" etc etc etc.....
wouldn't you think that the match referee has had plenty of warning of intent?
Would not an EARLY yellow card or two diffuse an over-aggressive attitude?
Would not nasty injuries be averted?
I think the answer is yes.
So why is this not happening, and why is Aaron Ramsey not running around enjoying his football like a normal 19 year old?
Answer...referees are letting it happen.
You can argue the Shawcross thing as much as you like. Something needs to change. The buck stops with the people who run our game. And the officials who are there to see that fair play is the norm.
I still think Shawcross is a nasty bastard. But it's not his fault that he has been allowed to get away with it. He should have been slapped down well before now. The *word censored*.
olgitgooner wrote:When certain teams publicly state that they are going to "rough Arsenal up" etc etc etc.....
wouldn't you think that the match referee has had plenty of warning of intent?
Would not an EARLY yellow card or two diffuse an over-aggressive attitude?
Would not nasty injuries be averted?
I think the answer is yes.
So why is this not happening, and why is Aaron Ramsey not running around enjoying his football like a normal 19 year old?
Answer...referees are letting it happen.
You can argue the Shawcross thing as much as you like. Something needs to change. The buck stops with the people who run our game. And the officials who are there to see that fair play is the norm.
I still think Shawcross is a nasty bastard. But it's not his fault that he has been allowed to get away with it. He should have been slapped down well before now. The c**t.
This is 100% correct The refs in the premiership are among the poorest in top leagues around the world!
Bergkamp-Genius wrote:Bitching about being hard done to will change nothing, so as long as the rules are as they are and are enforced as they are it would be a bit more prudent for the manager to do something about our perceived weaknesses instead of expecting wholesale rule changes to make it easier for his own footballing philosophies to work
But wholesale rule changes aren’t what’s needed or even what Wenger is asking for I don’t think. Just for the rules to actually be applied, and applied evenly. If teams play hard & full-blooded but generally fair against us (as some do) then fair enough it’s up to us to cope with that & if we don’t then that’s our own problem. I’d actually hate for us to be given preferential treatment & be overprotected cos it would devalue the worth of our achievements for me.
But too often with us normal rules don’t seem to apply. Not as a result of any great conspiracy whereby Pulis, Hansen, Andy Gray & Steve Bennet huddle around an effigy of Wenger & plot Arsenal’s downfall - more so through the accumulative effect of a) the unofficial old boys club that half of these managers & pundits are a part of (& Wenger clearly isn’t) sticking together in their “roughing up the prancing pansies is just part of the gameâ€
highburyJD wrote:bergkamp-genius that post is all very well
but how many times have we left opposition players with their legs hanging off?
in my era (end of howe, GG + wenger) I can't remember a single tackle like that
worst I can remember is Davis breaking that racist southampton 'hard' man's jaw all over his face (cotteril?) and that's totally different
(maybe I've forgotten something)
I can't remember a single manure or chav player being taken out like abou, edu or rambo
You can't remember because like me you don't really care about injuries and broken legs to players of other clubs, therefore your awareness of the extent of other clubs injuries and injury problems is very low..hence the persecution complex...
For instance if i told you that Man United between 2002 and now have suffered 6 first team broken legs, in comparison to our 4, or 5 if you want to include Diaby's ankle and 4 if you want to exclude Diaby breaking his own team mates leg ..
I would imagine that must surprise you since you seem to think that it's only our players that get broken legs, so it would surprise you to know that in the same period the evil Blackburn had 4 broken legs, two in the space of a few days , on two occasions , i can't even begin to imagine the conspiracy theories that would have been thrown around had that happened to us. I'll bet you didn't have any conspiracy theories regarding Blackburn being specifically picked on by the opposition, in fact i'll bet, like me, you weren't even aware it happened, and this is the crux of the problem we only really give a shit what happens at our own club, so we tend to think it's only happening to us and it's always worse for us than everyone else when in reality other clubs and fans are going through similar things.
Of course it doesn't help when our manager has been fuelling the fire for the last 4-5 years with his 'infamy infamy' speech every week, to cover up his own mistakes..the speech has had it's desired effect he's got people believing everyone is against us ..
I think that misses the point some what. Manchester United may have had broken bones but to the same extent? The worst I can think of from them was Alan Smith and that was not through a challenge. The worst challenge I remember seeing on a player of theres was the Rodrigo Possebon challenge but he escaped without a broken leg.That was an awful challenge and the type that should be punished more! The young lad was fortunate.
I can't remember them suffering compound fractures apart from Smith (wasn't via a challenge) or suffering the scenes that we have witnessed with Eduardo and Ramsey where there leg is being held together by a sock! Again with Blackburn the Savage one was from a reckless challenge but was again not a compound fracture, and the Andre Oojer one he fell awkwardly hardly the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the only two scenes when a player has had there leg hanging after a challenge was Eduardo and Ramsey.
Could you please clarify your points on broken bones? There is a big difference between a hairline fracture for example and a compound fracture? How many compound fractures or open dislocations of their ankles have these teams suffered?
Exiled Gooner makes a good point as well it's ok to say "you will kick Arsenal" you don't even need to mention the ball! This is true of all teams as Fletcher of Manure said he was going to kick Fabregas last year, no mention of the ball. We are the only team this happens to!
Does it matter what kind of a fracture, the severity of a fracture is as much about luck or bad luck as it is about intent, i've seen much heavier and worse tackles than the one on Eduardo that have caused no injury, yet Eddies looked horrific..
The opposition don't go in to tackles thinking i'm going to break his leg really badly as opposed to a hairline fracture. The whole point was that other teams are supposedly singling us out, setting out to cause our players physical harm and the broken legs are a product of that, so it doesn't matter what kind of break it is or whether it's a broken knee cap or a severely damaged ankle they are all bad injuries caused by bad or mis timed tackles, the point is all teams pick up injuries from bad and mis timed tackles, picking out a couple that ended up particularly badly doesn't mean other teams are not getting the same treatment it just means we had a couple that ended up worse than the norm..
Bergkamp-Genius wrote:The reason Wenger is being labelled as the whingeing frog, is because that is what he has become, i don't think even the AKB's could deny that he frequently comes out with shit nothing short of embarrassing when looking for an excuse for a loss or bad result, i don't believe there is any one on this board that doesn't at times wish he would just learn to shut his mouth and do his talking on the training ground and the pitch..
I don’t disagree at all that Wenger’s made a rod for his/our own back with some of his more ridiculous “woe is meâ€
[quote]I was pretty clear in saying no team should ever be made to roll over & just let us play, and that I’d actually hate it if they were. But likewise nor should the rules be bent to enforce us to play the way Bolton etc want the game to be played. It’s not for the ref to level the playing field just because one side has the “unfairâ€
if shawcross 'isn't that type of player' who is...?
I've seen some dirty dirty teams
wimbledon, luton, valencia - even estudiantes on video
NONE of them had players who would actually want to leave another pros foot held on by the sock
I've played on hackney marshes and been told I'm getting stabbed in the carpark, got off the ball rabbit punches and literally had clumps of armpit hair ripped out (that smarts like fek)
I don't believe any of those pissed/hungover/coming down cons on remand/builders/raggas/pigs really wanted to see people hurt in that way
basically nobody is 'THAT type of player'
nobody wants to see blood oozing on turf and bone poking through flesh
everyone should stop wasting time by awarding it as a badge of honour
highburyJD wrote:bergkamp-genius that post is all very well
but how many times have we left opposition players with their legs hanging off?
in my era (end of howe, GG + wenger) I can't remember a single tackle like that
worst I can remember is Davis breaking that racist southampton 'hard' man's jaw all over his face (cotteril?) and that's totally different
(maybe I've forgotten something)
I can't remember a single manure or chav player being taken out like abou, edu or rambo
You can't remember because like me you don't really care about injuries and broken legs to players of other clubs, therefore your awareness of the extent of other clubs injuries and injury problems is very low..hence the persecution complex...
For instance if i told you that Man United between 2002 and now have suffered 6 first team broken legs, in comparison to our 4, or 5 if you want to include Diaby's ankle and 4 if you want to exclude Diaby breaking his own team mates leg ..
I would imagine that must surprise you since you seem to think that it's only our players that get broken legs, so it would surprise you to know that in the same period the evil Blackburn had 4 broken legs, two in the space of a few days , on two occasions , i can't even begin to imagine the conspiracy theories that would have been thrown around had that happened to us. I'll bet you didn't have any conspiracy theories regarding Blackburn being specifically picked on by the opposition, in fact i'll bet, like me, you weren't even aware it happened, and this is the crux of the problem we only really give a shit what happens at our own club, so we tend to think it's only happening to us and it's always worse for us than everyone else when in reality other clubs and fans are going through similar things.
Of course it doesn't help when our manager has been fuelling the fire for the last 4-5 years with his 'infamy infamy' speech every week, to cover up his own mistakes..the speech has had it's desired effect he's got people believing everyone is against us ..
I think that misses the point some what. Manchester United may have had broken bones but to the same extent? The worst I can think of from them was Alan Smith and that was not through a challenge. The worst challenge I remember seeing on a player of theres was the Rodrigo Possebon challenge but he escaped without a broken leg.That was an awful challenge and the type that should be punished more! The young lad was fortunate.
I can't remember them suffering compound fractures apart from Smith (wasn't via a challenge) or suffering the scenes that we have witnessed with Eduardo and Ramsey where there leg is being held together by a sock! Again with Blackburn the Savage one was from a reckless challenge but was again not a compound fracture, and the Andre Oojer one he fell awkwardly hardly the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the only two scenes when a player has had there leg hanging after a challenge was Eduardo and Ramsey.
Could you please clarify your points on broken bones? There is a big difference between a hairline fracture for example and a compound fracture? How many compound fractures or open dislocations of their ankles have these teams suffered?
Exiled Gooner makes a good point as well it's ok to say "you will kick Arsenal" you don't even need to mention the ball! This is true of all teams as Fletcher of Manure said he was going to kick Fabregas last year, no mention of the ball. We are the only team this happens to!
Does it matter what kind of a fracture, the severity of a fracture is as much about luck or bad luck as it is about intent, i've seen much heavier and worse tackles than the one on Eduardo that have caused no injury, yet Eddies looked horrific..
The opposition don't go in to tackles thinking i'm going to break his leg really badly as opposed to a hairline fracture. The whole point was that other teams are supposedly singling us out, setting out to cause our players physical harm and the broken legs are a product of that, so it doesn't matter what kind of break it is or whether it's a broken knee cap or a severely damaged ankle they are all bad injuries caused by bad or mis timed tackles, the point is all teams pick up injuries from bad and mis timed tackles, picking out a couple that ended up particularly badly doesn't mean other teams are not getting the same treatment it just means we had a couple that ended up worse than the norm..
In some ways it does as it could be symptomatic of heavier challenges going in against us as the force needed to cause a double compound fracture is greater than a hairline fracture.
You used Blackburn and Manchester United as examples of other teams with leg breaks. I was just asking for some context for your figures. We all know that Eduardo, Diaby and Ramsey were all caused by poor challenges and I do not argue that other teams suffer poor challenges as well, but my knowledge of leg breaks in the Premiership is not all encompassing, but of the two teams you mentioned I know two of them were not caused by poor challenges which is totally different to what is being argued. So I was just after a little context for the other leg breaks?
Also what are your views on other teams being able to say they will kick us in the press and for this to be ok? For your talk of "Wengerball" and 94 and 98 teams I do not remember that happening to those teams or to any other team now? I would have no problem with the opposition saying they will press us and that they will get stuck in in an attempt to win the ball back quickly. But these other teams do not mention the football, just that they will kick us. Football is a contact sport but it is not kickboxing, it is still played with a football, but with us it seems the football is an afterthought!
..
, on two occasions 
..
Exactly like that!
