What needs to happen to prove Wenger right?

[Peeman]

In my opinion if we do win league or anything else (which I do think we have a good chance of doing) I don't think it will be because of Wenger - It would be in spite of Wenger. Even the biggest of Rosetinters would have to admit we needed to add to the squad in transfer window but alas he didn't again . Lets hope this time he can get away with it

[highburyJD]

In my opinion if we do win league or anything else (which I do think we have a good chance of doing) I don't think it will be because of Wenger - It would be in spite of Wenger. Even the biggest of Rosetinters would have to admit we needed to add to the squad in transfer window but alas he didn't again . Lets hope this time he can get away with it

if any team wins the league under a single manager to say it was despite him would be foolish
if an team wins the league under a manager who has been at a club for longer than every single player to say it was despite him is idiotic

[MM99]

In my opinion if we do win league or anything else (which I do think we have a good chance of doing) I don't think it will be because of Wenger - It would be in spite of Wenger. Even the biggest of Rosetinters would have to admit we needed to add to the squad in transfer window but alas he didn't again . Lets hope this time he can get away with it

Oh dear

[marcengels]

In my opinion if we do win league or anything else (which I do think we have a good chance of doing) I don't think it will be because of Wenger - It would be in spite of Wenger. Even the biggest of Rosetinters would have to admit we needed to add to the squad in transfer window but alas he didn't again . Lets hope this time he can get away with it

Oh dear

I think if we won the league Peeman, you would have to give due credit to Wenger, there's no way round it.

Stupid to say otherwise.

[USMartin]

I suppose a petition could be sent to the media, but unless it was a massive petition signed by many thousands of people, I doubt the media would look at it. To be honest, I think there are genuine concerns that Gooners can hold regarding lack of investment in the playing side of things, but surely you must realise that the reaction you would get if you were to go to press with a petition effectively slagging off the board would widely be one of ridicule? After all, most outsiders think the Arsenal are an example to hold up showing how a football club should be ran compared to the likes of City and Chelsea. People would mock the Arsenal fans for slagging off their board when they are second in the league, in the knockout stages of the CL, in the league cup final and still in the FA Cup as strong favourites to make the QF. Like I say, I think there are some genuine concerns, but people would see it as a bunch of fans who have been spoiled by "recent" successes acting up because they have had to go 5 years without a trophy. It would raise awareness, but I think the majority of people would completely disregard it and see it as plastic Sky boy fans moaning when they have it better than 99% of other football fans, and this reaction would, if anything, make the board feel even more comfortable about the choices it has been making

No - here I disagree.

First off the goal is not simply to slag the Board. As I have said ideally the current Board would be in charge going forward but with pre-2006 investment in the team.

If anyone doesn't want the Board here its the Board itself - they appear to have decided to sell their holdings in the club.

All we want to know is what they want to do and why taking the club forward, and how what they have been doing has been in the club's best interests.

As to the media lughing at that, I disagree. They might laugh at shareholders questioning what they are doing and why, because there is litlle argument that if Arsenal were anything but a football club and what is a football club really if not its football team, that the Board have served the company and its shareholders interests spendidly.

But if you look at Arsenal Football Club as a public representative of the communities of Highbury and Islington or simply a representative of its supporters in those communities and around the world and not simply another for-profit business there are real questions about whether the Board has acted with regard to those communities and the supporters.

So if you were to present a petition like this to media reporters who believe the sole raison d'etre of Arsenal Football Club is the enrichmernt of its shareholders you may be right. But if you get a media person who believes its raison d'etre is at least in part to represent its supporters and try to achieve their hopes and dreams than I don't think you will get that reaction.

[safcftm]

No - here I disagree.

First off the goal is not simply to slag the Board. As I have said ideally the current Board would be in charge going forward but with pre-2006 investment in the team.

If anyone doesn't want the Board here its the Board itself - they appear to have decided to sell their holdings in the club.

All we want to know is what they want to do and why taking the club forward, and how what they have been doing has been in the club's best interests.

As to the media lughing at that, I disagree. They might laugh at shareholders questioning what they are doing and why, because there is litlle argument that if Arsenal were anything but a football club and what is a football club really if not its football team, that the Board have served the company and its shareholders interests spendidly.

But if you look at Arsenal Football Club as a public representative of the communities of Highbury and Islington or simply a representative of its supporters in those communities and around the world and not simply another for-profit business there are real questions about whether the Board has acted with regard to those communities and the supporters.

So if you were to present a petition like this to media reporters who believe the sole raison d'etre of Arsenal Football Club is the enrichmernt of its shareholders you may be right. But if you get a media person who believes its raison d'etre is at least in part to represent its supporters and try to achieve their hopes and dreams than I don't think you will get that reaction.

I know the goal isnt simply to slag the board, all I am saying is that is how it would come across. As for the media reaction, you can believe that it would be received positively by the media etc, I suppose you'd have to try it to find out, all that I am saying is that, from an outsiders point of view, it doesnt really look like the Arsenal fans have much to complain about. I'm pretty sure it would be seen as spoilt fans stomping their feet because they werent winning titles. Fact is, despite the lack of player signings, Arsenal are progressing as a football club. Yes, they have regressed from the TH14, DB10 years, but over the last few seasons Wenger has obviously been trying to get a side together to challenge again and, slowly, the fruits of that labour are being seen. From being a fair way off, the club is back to competing. For example, having been the invincibles and then coming second the next season, the results were as follows:

05/06 Arsenal finish 4th, 24 points off the title
06/07 Arsenal finish 4th, 21 points off the title
07/08 Arsenal finish 3rd, 4 points off the title
08/09 Arsenal finish 4th, 18 points off the title
09/10 Arsenal finish 3rd 11 points off
10/11 Arsenal over half way through the season are 2nd, 5 points off the unbeaten leaders

To me that looks like consistently getting top 4 and, if you consider the 07/08 as a "one off" (if that is the right term) result, as it is the only one "out of sequence" as it were, every season the side is getting closer and closer to winning back the title.

No doubt many on here disagree with me on this, as I say I am just giving an outsiders opinion, but to me this looks like a club who has lost the nucleus of its last great side and is now rebuilding sensibly. Why now, when you are getting closer and closer to a title, and are competing on 4 fronts come February, would you suddenly want the removal of the board? Yes, it is surprising and annoying for your fans that you havent invested in the 2 or 3 players which could maybe speed the process up, but currently their plan looks to be, long term, a successful one and IMO it would look to the media and others as if a sensible board are being hounded out of a club by fans impatient for success.

Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in Europe, and therefore the world, we all know this, but you have had 24 major honours (a rough count from wiki counting league, fa cup and cup winners cup) in, what, 124 years? Thats about one major trophy every six years, so if it takes 6 or 7 years to win a trophy from your last one to your next one, but the sensible groundwork has been done that then allows you to win several over the course of a few seasons, this period could be seen as a very successful one in Arsenal's history. It might not work out, but currently the plan looks sensible enough to be worth sticking with and I think the groundswell of opinion would be that your board, although not perfect, are doing a good, sensible job whilst others are risking the futures of their clubs.

[QuartzGooner]

@USMartin

I do not know where you get information from, but the club has done a heck of a lot of charitable work and local community work over the years. With many different charities, and local schools, and players visiting hospitals.
It also does community work overseas with interfaith football training schemes.

[USMartin]

@USMartin

I do not know where you get information from, but the club has done a heck of a lot of charitable work and local community work over the years. With many different charities, and local schools, and players visiting hospitals.
It also does community work overseas with interfaith football training schemes.

I think you are mis-reading my point. There was no accusation that the Club hasn't been active in the community. Simply that the Board's current policies may reflect a self-interest that is not in line with what the people of the community believe their policies should be. Certainly not a number of the people who are Arsenal supporters, and even those whose trust the Board may find their trust is not justified at this point even if they are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that possibility.

[USMartin]

I know the goal isnt simply to slag the board, all I am saying is that is how it would come across. As for the media reaction, you can believe that it would be received positively by the media etc, I suppose you'd have to try it to find out, all that I am saying is that, from an outsiders point of view, it doesnt really look like the Arsenal fans have much to complain about. I'm pretty sure it would be seen as spoilt fans stomping their feet because they werent winning titles.

I have to disagree only because while I respect your point about being an outsider that colors how you would view our situation, which is only natural. From our view it is not about winning titles – not mine anyway.

That certainly figures into it, but my issue is that without spending crazily by any standard we had a sustained period of historical success that could have been extended with continued investment and that not only did the refusal to continue that investment end that historical run of success but it has risked creating far more serious long-term damager to Arsenal on the pitch as it nearly resulted more than once in costing us our Champions League place which surely would set us back even further than the lack on investment already has.

So not only has it prematurely ended a golden era ofr the club on the pitch but threatens to pre-empt any return to that level of success again for far longer still. If you are familiar with the story of the Boston Red Sox and Babe Ruth that is my concern about the real impact of these policies.

[USMartin]

Fact is, despite the lack of player signings, Arsenal are progressing as a football club. Yes, they have regressed from the TH14, DB10 years, but over the last few seasons Wenger has obviously been trying to get a side together to challenge again and, slowly, the fruits of that labour are being seen. From being a fair way off, the club is back to competing. For example, having been the invincibles and then coming second the next season, the results were as follows:


05/06 Arsenal finish 4th, 24 points off the title
06/07 Arsenal finish 4th, 21 points off the title
07/08 Arsenal finish 3rd, 4 points off the title
08/09 Arsenal finish 4th, 18 points off the title
09/10 Arsenal finish 3rd 11 points off
10/11 Arsenal over half way through the season are 2nd, 5 points off the unbeaten leaders


To me that looks like consistently getting top 4 and, if you consider the 07/08 as a "one off" (if that is the right term) result, as it is the only one "out of sequence" as it were, every season the side is getting closer and closer to winning back the title.

You make a good case except that we are not moving forward so much as other clubs are moving backward and as we saw Monday if those clubs show a bit more ambition we can fall back as far as we have moved forward in a matter of hours. But in all seriousness if we simply invested in one more quality player a season since 2006 we almost surely would be walking the Premiership this year, and would almost certainly have won it in 07-08, and finished considerably higher every year since 2006. And again instead of doing that we have finished closer to fifth than first almost every year, and that is the real problem because a fifth place finish would have devastating consequences.

And again given how little it would cost how does it benefit Arsenal Football Club not to do it, that is what we want to know?

[USMartin]

No doubt many on here disagree with me on this, as I say I am just giving an outsiders opinion, but to me this looks like a club who has lost the nucleus of its last great side and is now rebuilding sensibly. Why now, when you are getting closer and closer to a title, and are competing on 4 fronts come February, would you suddenly want the removal of the board? Yes, it is surprising and annoying for your fans that you havent invested in the 2 or 3 players which could maybe speed the process up, but currently their plan looks to be, long term, a successful one and IMO it would look to the media and others as if a sensible board are being hounded out of a club by fans impatient for success.

Have to disagree pretty strongly here.

Massive overpaying clearly underachieving and performing and undermotivated youngsters and underpaying genuine world-class performers is anything but sensible, and we all know this is going on, Board members have even acknowledged that it is., and defended the policy, and this is the heart of our concerns. How does this policy benefit the football club at all? And is this policy meant to limit the money the manager can spend but to allow the Board to mis-lead supporters about that?

Right now why do we have 130 million banked away when our debt is annual mortgage which can be paid out of each successive years profits and we can’t pay down the debt any sooner than that – how does the football club benefit from that – not from the shareholders perspective but the supporters? And that number will only get larger this summer as it doesn’t include this years expected profits before any transfer business and we know there will be at least one big-name sale.

The question is the current Board looking out for Arsenal Football Club or its own major shareholders with these policies? Are these multi-millionaires and billionaires taking advantage of the trust and of working- and middle-class Gooners?

[USMartin]

Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in Europe, and therefore the world, we all know this, but you have had 24 major honours (a rough count from wiki counting league, fa cup and cup winners cup) in, what, 124 years? Thats about one major trophy every six years, so if it takes 6 or 7 years to win a trophy from your last one to your next one, but the sensible groundwork has been done that then allows you to win several over the course of a few seasons, this period could be seen as a very successful one in Arsenal's history. It might not work out, but currently the plan looks sensible enough to be worth sticking with and I think the groundswell of opinion would be that your board, although not perfect, are doing a good, sensible job whilst others are risking the futures of their clubs.

Again I think this is the problem with looking at this as a neutral. The issue isn’t simply a lack of trophies. Arsenal was not in danger of going broke pursuing policies which saw us win the Premiership three times and finish first or second eight straight years, win four FA Cups, two Doubles and of course the saw the rise of the Invincibles (THAT’s how you spell it btw)

So to give that up for anything less than even greater success or at least a return to a similar level while Board members become even wealthier as a result is something that bothers some of us and should if that in fact is why this is happening. We deserve better than to perhaps end up like s***s so some rich people can become even richer I think.

My thing is that we have to ask these questions now because if we are still asking them in 3-5 years or finally learn our worst fears were justified then it will be too late really – look at how ugly the reaction to our most successful manager since Herbert Chapman has already become. We deserve better than to have such a glorious period of our history poisoned simply for the benefit of a few already very wealthy individuals, especially when they still could have done very well for themselves while pushing Arsenal to do better the past few years.

[Gunnersaurus]

I'm frustrated that we don't strengthen the positions we need to in order to really cement our challenges on four fronts. As has been well documented, a couple of purchases in the right positions could set us up nicely.

However, I'm also very proud to not be involved in the circus that Sky Sports has presented today. Splashing £35m on mediocre players (Carroll), sneakily trying to do last minute deals, despite claiming just hours before that no business will take place (Redknapp), splashing out £70m+ just because they're not winning the league (Chelsea), and all the knock-ons that came with those dealings, is not my cup of tea.

Despite Wenger's many faults, I'm proud that he's assembled a team currently inferior to just one in the entire country on a relatively shoestring budget; that he doesn't have to tarnish our club's great legacy by airing our dirty transfer laundry for the baying media to scrutinise; and that we're not at the mercy of the likes of Newcastle or fucking Blackpool to save our season.

To the same extent, we don't have glitz and glamour outside our stadium at god knows what hour whilst some shit-stirring prick tries to interview our players or fans.

So yes, I'd like to make a couple of signings, but I'm glad we're staying a cut above the rest and keeping our integrity whilst everyone else exposes themselves like a cheap whore for Sky Sports to penetrate at will.

But we were at the mercy of Zenit St Petersburg a few years ago so we can't claim the moral highground.

Yes he has assembled a squad second to one at the moment but he had the chance to go one further and hasn't helped himself to do it.

Maybe some our quite happy to always be the bridsemade, some want to be the bride though.

[safcftm]

Again I think this is the problem with looking at this as a neutral. The issue isn’t simply a lack of trophies. Arsenal was not in danger of going broke pursuing policies which saw us win the Premiership three times and finish first or second eight straight years, win four FA Cups, two Doubles and of course the saw the rise of the Invincibles (THAT’s how you spell it btw)

So to give that up for anything less than even greater success or at least a return to a similar level while Board members become even wealthier as a result is something that bothers some of us and should if that in fact is why this is happening. We deserve better than to perhaps end up like s***s so some rich people can become even richer I think.

My thing is that we have to ask these questions now because if we are still asking them in 3-5 years or finally learn our worst fears were justified then it will be too late really – look at how ugly the reaction to our most successful manager since Herbert Chapman has already become. We deserve better than to have such a glorious period of our history poisoned simply for the benefit of a few already very wealthy individuals, especially when they still could have done very well for themselves while pushing Arsenal to do better the past few years.

I appreciate that you werent going to go bankrupt when you were winning lots of trophies, but just because you won a lot of trophies then doesnt mean that a continuation of the same policy will automatically lead to more trophies, and there is no god given right to win trophies. As I mentioned, that haul of trophies you mentioned represents 7 of about 24 of the clubs major honours, it was blatantly a golden period even by Arsenal standards but no club maintains that forever. When Pires, Ljungberg, Bergkamp, Henry, Adams et al left, it was always going to be hard to replace them, and chucking money at it might well not have helped (look at Liverpool, they've chucked money into their side for ages and ended up shit). It was a great side, and now the club is working towards getting back to title contention. Yes, its taking a while, but the plan has hardly been a great failure and its not been bad enough to warrant a change of the board imo. As I say, I realise I'm not a Gooner, and maybe I'm just well off the pulse (although I can't say I notice you basking in the unanimous support of your fellow Gooners on here), but I simply don't think people can really complain about the board when there is no proof that they are witholding funds from Wenger, and when whoever is calling the shots, the club are second in the league and still in the title race despite a team being unbeaten thus far, still in the CL (albeit likely to go out, but you are playing one of the best club sides of all time so no shame there), favourites to make last 8 of the FA Cup and favourites to lift the League Cup.

You talk about ending up like Spurs, but your major trophy drought looks like being nowhere near theirs, and there is no evidence that you are struggling to maintain your place as one of the top sides in the league, and this at a time when certain others might be about to end up struggling when fair play rules come into force

[I Hate Hleb]

And just what do we as supporters do when the new manager does fuck all to strengthen because the funds aren't available to him even though the Club has them?

Again Martin. This is totally unproven.

I think le boss has plenty of funds. But chooses not to spend them. He's a stubborn old git like me.

Clearly delusional oldgit. And ignorant of the real problem

Bit harsh on olgitgooner there, AA23Northbank. You have to bear in mind that he is at an age when things don't always make sense and even the simplest instructions can become very difficult to understand.