The Rooney Rule

[MadRich]

This was always going to be a contentious issue, but the fact that most black players support this rule says a lot.

My understanding of this rule is to give an opportunity to compete for jobs, of which i suppose the managers are chosen by merit.
This assumes no one is racist/or being accused of racism but they are just not exposed to each other. meaning blacks often get overlooked.

But the risk with this rule is everyone will assume any black manager got the job because of the colour of their skin, making this whole excercise useless.

[Never Outgunned]

You've hit on a seperate issue entirely there which is nothing to do with race but since everything seems to be about race with you i would say that John Barnes is a black example of playing reputation giving one a head start in management.

If you want to use John Barnes as an example, then there's Liam Brady as a counter example. Both took over managing one of Europe's biggest clubs with no experience whatsoever and neither was a Celtic man, both were a failure.

Brady was back in a job pretty quickly at Brighton and even though he failed there still got coaching jobs at Arsenal and Eire.

John Barnes after his Celtic failure took abother 8 years to find a managerial or coaching position

Where im coming from is that i think the rooney rule is barking up the wrong tree as i dont accept its premise that institutional racism is prevalent in english football and although its not quite affirmative action it would likely be a stepping stone to it when (as IHH pointed out) a few years down the line people start to ask why the rooney rule hasn't translated into outcomes.

You might not accept the premise but then again you're not the one subjected to it, so you're hardly likely to.

You also talk about what if it fails, well if you look at the NFL there was an increase of 22% of Black and Hispanic coaches appointed. Mike Tomlin, a black coach, won the Superbowl in 2008 with the Pittsburg Steelers. If it translated into outcomes in the NFL why not in the Premiership?

I have no idea what potential paul davis has, ive never spoken to the bloke or seen him coach. I begrudge him nothing. I just suspect he packed in his coaching career too early after assuming the knockbacks that every potential manager will undoubtedly recieve were down to race

He is as qualified as is possible to be in coaching - he coaches future coaches at the PFA, though can't find a coaching position in English Football.

Again you talk about packing in his coaching career early. Says who? How do you know how many coaching positions Davis has put himself forward for? I'm astounded at your knowledge you've never met me or Paul Davis though you know what newspaper I read and how many jobs he's put himself forward for - that is unless you're filling the gaps in your knowledge with a prefixed stereotype, but I'm sure that's not the case!

[Never Outgunned]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

Who said anything about Nationality?

There are 25% black footballers in English football and 2% black managers in English football.

[Never Outgunned]

Simple fact of the matter is that you should be selecting and interviewing based on their ability as a manager, not their race.

Who gives a toss if they're black/white/asian/whatever - can they do the job? Can they motivate? Can they win trophies? Can they deal with the media? These are the questions that should be taken into consideration.

And are their attributes taken into consideration or a perceived one based on racial stereotype?

If I was going for a job in a predominantly black industry and they said we're giving you an interview not because we think you're best for the job but that we've been forced to because you're white and we need more white people in this industry, I'd tell them to shove their job up their arse.

mmm... a predominantly black industry, really? Do tell me what a predominantly black industry is in the UK? It's all well and good concocting a hyperthetical scenerio and saying that's how you would react, a bit different when you're actually subject to a covert colour bar.

At the end of the day, I've absolutely no doubt people like TH14, PV4, Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand etc would make great managers and I've no doubt that if their ability was good enough, they would be appointed to premier league posts.

Oh really. And do you actually think any of that list would actually be considered for a position seeing that Paul Davis, Les Ferdinand, Ian Wright, Cyrille Regis and Brendan Batson never were?

To suggest the english football leagues hold some kind of institutional racism is just a joke frankly.

You might find it a joke but I can find plenty people not laughing at the prospect of being denied the opportunity to fulfill their potential on the basis of racial stereotypes - but, again assuming that you are white, that's thankfully a reality you'll not have to consider[/quote]

[g88ner]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

Who said anything about Nationality?

There are 25% black footballers in English football and 2% black managers in English football.

Common sense tells you that most (almost all) lower league managers are British, so by including foreign players (African, French African, etc) in your stats, you're skewing the data into something meaningless.

You have to be comparing apples with apples, of what's the point?

Anyway, the key is what % of black British players were plying their trade in England between 1985-1995, as it's those players that are of management age NOW.

That should START to give you a better indication of the amount of managers we should expect to have between the 92 teams of the football league.

This whole 25% black players and 2% black managers is lazy at best, and totally misleading at worst.

Lets get the stats right before we analyse them! - if not, it's pointless and sensationalist.

[SWLGooner]

Thanks for saving me typing out a reply g88ner

[worthing_gooner]

I cant be bothered to type an answer to NeverOutgunned's post because we could go around in circles all day long.

I'm not going to get into a race debate because inevitably you're accused of being a racist when you're simply making a reasoned point (not that N.O. did that in his post).

As numerous people have already pointed out, managers these days were the players of the 80s and early 90s and there weren't many black players at that time, and neither were there all the French-Africans etc playing in the Premier League.

So people who say there are 25% black players in the league but only 2% black managers should really look back and say how many black players were there in the league in the 90s? How many of those were actually english, how many of those were interested in management? How many went into coaching instead?

You mentioned Les Ferdinand etc - perhaps they just werent good enough for the job... didn't Les go and coach at Sp*rs? And how many of them were actually really interested? John Barnes decided TV would be the way to go - whose fault is that?

Paul Ince has been in management, as has Chris Hughton - both at Premier League clubs. Chris Powell was manager of Charlton, Jean Tigana was at Fulham, Ruud Gullit at Chelsea, there's no racism there as far as I'm concerned - these people were good enough to get the job, they got the job. When results went against them, they were sacked. Same as for everyone else.

[QuartzGooner]

If a Premier League club was bought by Ophrah Winfrey and it only employed Black managers, would people say it was racist?

[Never Outgunned]

No way are there 25 percent black Englishmen of all players.

Who said anything about Nationality?

There are 25% black footballers in English football and 2% black managers in English football.

Common sense tells you that most (almost all) lower league managers are British, so by including foreign players (African, French African, etc) in your stats, you're skewing the data into something meaningless.

You have to be comparing apples with apples, of what's the point?

Anyway, the key is what % of black British players were plying their trade in England between 1985-1995, as it's those players that are of management age NOW.

That should START to give you a better indication of the amount of managers we should expect to have between the 92 teams of the football league.

This whole 25% black players and 2% black managers is lazy at best, and totally misleading at worst.

Lets get the stats right before we analyse them! - if not, it's pointless and sensationalist.

Firstly - there are more non British/Irish managers in the lower leagues of English football than Black managers and there were a heck of a lot less of them in the English game between 1985-1995 than there were black players.

Secondly - Do you honestly believe the number of black players plying their trade in English football during 1985-1995 was as low, or anywhere near as low as 2%? Because I seem to recall differently

Thirdly - According to a 2009 survey by the University of Warwick 12.5% of players with a "Uefa B" qualification are black, compared to occupying just 2% of managerial or coaching jobs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2 ... rom_r.html

Try taking those three points into account before you accuse anyone of being lazy or misleading with the facts

[Never Outgunned]

If a Premier League club was bought by Ophrah Winfrey and it only employed Black managers, would people say it was racist?

This along with the 'trades that only employ blacks employing whites for positive discrimination' example just show how outlandish and desperate the race realtions 'rose-tinters' are with their arguments

[Never Outgunned]

John Barnes decided TV would be the way to go - whose fault is that?

Considering that no-one was offering a position and he was even coaching at Swindon for free that was more like Hobson's Choice.

Also as pointed out, Barnes had the same level of success at Celtic as Liam Brady - who found alternative employment in coaching and management pretty quickly.

Paul Ince has been in management, as has Chris Hughton - both at Premier League clubs. Chris Powell was manager of Charlton, Jean Tigana was at Fulham, Ruud Gullit at Chelsea, there's no racism there as far as I'm concerned - these people were good enough to get the job, they got the job. When results went against them, they were sacked. Same as for everyone else.

Was Chris Hughton booted out of Newcastle for failure? Only I seem to remember differently, seeing that it was he who got them back up. Also replaced by Alan Pardew - a failure at West Ham, relegated Charlton from which they've never come back from and sacked by third tier Southampton.

Also Paul Ince was barely given a crack at Blackburn.[/quote]

[Never Outgunned]

Looks like Earl Barrett is another lazy fucker making excuses for himself!

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Ro ... 98233.html

[QuartzGooner]

If a Premier League club was bought by Ophrah Winfrey and it only employed Black managers, would people say it was racist?

This along with the 'trades that only employ blacks employing whites for positive discrimination' example just show how outlandish and desperate the race realtions 'rose-tinters' are with their arguments

I have not made any racist point here though.

I just ask a question.

I think people would say such a club was racist, even if each manager got the job on merit.

Which is why the Rooney Rule should be brought in here, at least on a trial basis of say five years, then assess the situation.

[worthing_gooner]

If a Premier League club was bought by Ophrah Winfrey and it only employed Black managers, would people say it was racist?

This along with the 'trades that only employ blacks employing whites for positive discrimination' example just show how outlandish and desperate the race realtions 'rose-tinters' are with their arguments

I have not made any racist point here though.

I just ask a question.

I think people would say such a club was racist, even if each manager got the job on merit.

Which is why the Rooney Rule should be brought in here, at least on a trial basis of say five years, then assess the situation.

If the black people are the best people for the job at Operah’s club, then it wouldn’t be racist – she’d just be employing the best people for the job.

In addition to that – Chairmen in the Premier League are often foreign themselves, so this is not a case of white people not employing black people, but of foreign chairmen not employing black managers.

But where do we stop? Why do they not employ just black managers? If they hold some kind of racist grudge then why do they employ Spaniards, Italians etc?

Sure Chris Houghton was forced out at Newcastle, but he walked straight back into a job because he’s a good coach. And he wasn’t forced out because he was black – if that was the case he’d never have been made manager in the first place.

Houghton did an excellent job at Newcastle and is a top manager IMO, but we can’t just assume that he was sacked because he was black. That is a huge assumption and a completely unfounded accusation.

I guess we could go around in circles with this debate all day but I’d be interested to ask Never Outgunned one question, not strictly football related but important nonetheless – if English football clubs are racist for not employing black managers, does that mean the MOBOs are racist for not allowing white music? Or Black History Month is racist for not allowing white history? As I said, the debate could go round and round for ages, but I’d like to think in this day and age, if a black person was good enough, they’d get the job.

As for Paul Ince, he did a rubbish job at Blackburn and got fired – the same as anyone else in that situation.

[Never Outgunned]

In addition to that – Chairmen in the Premier League are often foreign themselves, so this is not a case of white people not employing black people, but of foreign chairmen not employing black managers.

But where do we stop? Why do they not employ just black managers? If they hold some kind of racist grudge then why do they employ Spaniards, Italians etc?

This isn't just about the premiership - there are only 2 black managers in all four divisions.

I guess we could go around in circles with this debate all day but I’d be interested to ask Never Outgunned one question, not strictly football related but important nonetheless – if English football clubs are racist for not employing black managers, does that mean the MOBOs are racist for not allowing white music? Or Black History Month is racist for not allowing white history? As I said, the debate could go round and round for ages, but I’d like to think in this day and age, if a black person was good enough, they’d get the job.

Yawn!

Yet another tiresome response from race relations rosetinters - the MOBOs are a dated concept now granted, however they emanate from a time where British black musicians got less coverage than they do now. From the days when Soul II Soul or Incognito would be generally overlooked for Brits that were usually given to Duran Duran or Stock, Aitken and Waterman.

Same with black history month, if your history is overlooked on the ciriculum you need a special month to point it out.

Lessons on the ciriculum about white history are usually called 'History lessons' on the ciriculum - to have a white history month would make no sense. [/quote]