It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
frankbutcher wrote:JD - just give up. Everyone can see that you're talking nonsense. The Coalition are doing the right thing. They are reducing the deficit. If we keep spending as you suggest we do, we will increase our cost of debt and our rating will worsen. This will simply increase our interest cost, which will out-weigh any benefit from investment. The UK is a business. We must work within our means. We have borrowed too much money. Now we need to pay it back. We won't pay it back by borrowing more money. I will remind you for the last time - WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY!!!!!!!!!
frankbutcher wrote:Talk me through how this grand plan reduces the deficit and at the same time keeps the international economy confident in our recovery plan. I'm all ears.
in the grand spirit of politicians, babatunde and me after revising badly for exams I am instead of asking your question
going to do something completely different that I find more interesting (also I havent got a coherent economic recovery plan preprepared)
Lets accept the UK is a business and 'work within our means'
1st things 1st do we need unproductive members of society? No we don't we're a business.
So lets retire those that cant work and incentivise those that don't...
how does that work for a country...?
ok euthanasia for all who can't pass a fit to work test
mums at home looking after kids? - easy, send the kids to work (their little fingers are good for getting into machinery and they accept very low wages) they can live in the factory reducing a housing cost. Mums can work too - unless they fail the fit to work test in which case they join granny at the glue factory.
I've just taken unemployment benefits, pensions and education off our P&L sheet - CEO of the year?
the UK is not a business
You get bogged down in the detail too much. Look at the big picture. We are a Business. Of course we need to take care of welfare and those not able to work. Where did I say we don't? Quite simply though, we can't keep paying for people not to work in their millions. We are not a charity. We are a Business. We also don't get any return from millions of people employed in non-jobs. Quite simply there are too many people in this country. Immigration has been out of control for decades. We need to bring up the draw-bridge to all non-skilled Labour. We need to get out of the ECHR and completely overhaul our welfare system. I would double the size of the police to keep people in check. We also pull out of Afghanistan immediately and leave Syria alone. To save even more money I'd give Wales and Scotland the devolution they keep bleating on about. It's about time they start supporting themselves. And finally...... I'd give everyone £100 to spend on whatever they want. That would give everyone a great big boost and make us ooodles of money from taxes and profit taxes.
just saw the devolve Scotland so they 'support themselves' line in your standard rightwing bullet point manifesto
you have heard of NorthSea oil...?
not really worth going into the detail and dismantling all your bizarro world right-wing preconceptions
if you are standing by your two most palpably foolish statements
1-the UK is a business (in no real or useful economic sense is this the case - one simple example illustrated that immediately)
2- the government is currently outspending our GDP (not only inaccurate but also insane and possibly impossible - very difficult to think of govt spending that wouldn't impact GDP. It 's trying to get to zero by repeatedly halving)
PS who are the millions of people employed in non-jobs BTW
I've never heard anything like that before, WTF is a non-job and who employs them..?
highburyJD wrote:do you understand the structural difference that the £100 bonus/give away illustrates?
It shows the UK is not a business.
Of course the UK is not a 100% replica of a Business. The UK is a Business in the sense that it has a Balance Sheet and it either makes a Profit or Loss. It can borrow money to invest, but it must pay interest on this and it must pay it back one day. I stated my assumption pages ago now. Why do you fail to see the point that the UK must work within its means like any other Business? You keep steering the topic towards unimportant irrelevancies. In regard to the £100 topic. The comparison was made was that the UK government giving away £100 to members of the population, or a Business investing £100. Of course a Business would never give £100 bonuses to its staff expecting the money to make its way back to the Company. A Business would invest £100 in new stock or a new piece of machinery. A return should be made on this investment. However simply investibg £100 anywhere in the UK economy will not guarantee a return. For one, that £100 needs to be borrowed as we are in deficit and this would cost the country in interest. Secondly, that £100 won't necessarily be spent in the UK.
The over-riding argument here is that you work within your means. Spending money in the economy does not guarantee a return which pays down the deficit. It simply doesn't work like that. To be honest, you are fighting a number of losing battles across this forum. It bores me. I'm off to actually lend some money to proper businesses. That might boost the economy!
highburyJD wrote:just saw the devolve Scotland so they 'support themselves' line in your standard rightwing bullet point manifesto
you have heard of NorthSea oil...?
not really worth going into the detail and dismantling all your bizarro world right-wing preconceptions
if you are standing by your two most palpably foolish statements
1-the UK is a business (in no real or useful economic sense is this the case - one simple example illustrated that immediately)
2- the government is currently outspending our GDP (not only inaccurate but also insane and possibly impossible - very difficult to think of govt spending that wouldn't impact GDP. It 's trying to get to zero by repeatedly halving)
PS who are the millions of people employed in non-jobs BTW
I've never heard anything like that before, WTF is a non-job and who employs them..?
All baloney. JD. The UK government has recorded a deficit for about 10 years and continues to do so. GDP is a red herring. Keep looking at definitions of GDP. It won't help you win this argument. The UK is a Business. If we keep making losses, we will go bust. A Business doesn't just go bust on assets vs liabilities. We have too many assets for that to happen. But we could default on our debt if we're not careful (a long way away I admit). Just look at Greece.
I've heard of North Sea Oil. I've also heard of Falklands Oil. Scotland can go fuck themselves. As for non-jobs, look at Local Government, Department for the Deputy Prime Minister, Quangos in every sector.
frankbutcher wrote:Keep looking at definitions of GDP.
I think it's you who should do that, as you seem to say you still believe:
frankbutcher wrote:we spend more than our GDP every year. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
frankbutcher wrote:GDP is a red herring.
does 'red herring' actually mean - I don't know what it means...
I know what GDP is JD. You''re splitting hairs. GDP is a catch all akin to Turnover. From turnover you get the equivalent of a Gross Profit. Then Net Profit / Loss. We have been making a loss for the last 10 years and are forecast to carry on doing so. I feel like I'm having an argument wth Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. Not interested in the important things, all they want to do is point score on semantics.
and who are you to decide other peoples jobs are 'non-jobs'???
Your job was illegal and considered a sin by the three main monotheistic religions a few hundred years ago
If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)
“O you who believe! Do not devour usury, making it double and redouble and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, that you may be successful. And guard yourself against the fire that has been prepared for the unbelievers.
(Surah Āli- ‘Imran 3:130-131)
highburyJD wrote:and who are you to decide other peoples jobs are 'non-jobs'???
Your job was illegal and considered a sin by the three main monotheistic religions a few hundred years ago
If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)
“O you who believe! Do not devour usury, making it double and redouble and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, that you may be successful. And guard yourself against the fire that has been prepared for the unbelievers.
(Surah Āli- ‘Imran 3:130-131)
sounds much worse than a non-job to me...
And I get paid a lot of money for doing it! Non-jobs - your job.
frankbutcher wrote: And I get paid a lot of money for doing it! Non-jobs - your job.
personally I don't hate moneylenders
wouldn't want to do it myself
but I can see how it keeps the economy tootling along
I don't understand the the equation non-jobs - your job
do you still believe the govt spends more than GDP?
The government spends more than GDP derives in income. I thought you would get the gist of the point. That doesn't suit your line of argument though. You'd rather hammer me for not being clearer. Non-jobs = a job that serves no real purpose. There are plenty of quangos and local government positions which are set up solely to police things that shouldn't exist in the first place. We had c. 529 quangos when the coalition took over. Take a look at the list.. All crucial jobs!!
Everyone can see that you're talking nonsense. The Coalition are doing the right thing. They are reducing the deficit. If we keep spending as you suggest we do, we will increase our cost of debt and our rating will worsen. This will simply increase our interest cost, which will out-weigh any benefit from investment. The UK is a business. We must work within our means. We have borrowed too much money. Now we need to pay it back. We won't pay it back by borrowing more money. I will remind you for the last time - WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY!!!!!!!!!
in the grand spirit of politicians, babatunde and me after revising badly for exams I am instead of asking your questionfrankbutcher wrote:Talk me through how this grand plan reduces the deficit and at the same time keeps the international economy confident in our recovery plan. I'm all ears.
We also don't get any return from millions of people employed in non-jobs. Quite simply there are too many people in this country. Immigration has been out of control for decades. We need to bring up the draw-bridge to all non-skilled Labour. We need to get out of the ECHR and completely overhaul our welfare system. I would double the size of the police to keep people in check. We also pull out of Afghanistan immediately and leave Syria alone. To save even more money I'd give Wales and Scotland the devolution they keep bleating on about. It's about time they start supporting themselves. And finally...... I'd give everyone £100 to spend on whatever they want. That would give everyone a great big boost and make us ooodles of money from taxes and profit taxes. 
In regard to the £100 topic. The comparison was made was that the UK government giving away £100 to members of the population, or a Business investing £100. Of course a Business would never give £100 bonuses to its staff expecting the money to make its way back to the Company. A Business would invest £100 in new stock or a new piece of machinery. A return should be made on this investment. However simply investibg £100 anywhere in the UK economy will not guarantee a return. For one, that £100 needs to be borrowed as we are in deficit and this would cost the country in interest. Secondly, that £100 won't necessarily be spent in the UK. 
Non-jobs = a job that serves no real purpose. There are plenty of quangos and local government positions which are set up solely to police things that shouldn't exist in the first place. We had c. 529 quangos when the coalition took over. Take a look at the list.. 