I BLAME ARSENE WENGER

[augie]

Everybody in any walk of life has a shelf life and the debate is now whether wenger has outlived his but you want to argue that he be allowed carry on with his own agenda for an unlimited amount of time

No you're talking through your hat.

Wenger has has not by any means outlived his shelf life, you're writing him off on the basis of two draws for fuck sake.

Now give the name of this great messiah who will show Wenger how it's done, seeing that you think he's past his shelf life?

I didnt say that he has outlived his shelflife I just asked the question and I also said that I feel that you appear to think that that there is no possibility of that happening and appear happy enough to indulge wenger's idealistic dreams. To follow through your philosophy we should still have TA6 playing centre back cos he was once a great centre back for us - I mean you seem to suggest that there is no-one out there ready to replace wenger so we should just stick with what we have Remember nobody would have thrown wenger's name at you when rioch was sacked so it is possible for another manager to come in and be successful for our club even if you were surprised at his appointment

[Cus Geezer]

Cus what exactly represents progression/improvement in your eyes ?

I don't know maybe losing only one premiership game all season, that not a progression from the last couple of years?

Maybe actually being in the race at this stage, which we weren't in the last three?

Maybe the fact that we'll probably finish no lower than 2nd, when many thought we'd lose our champions league spot to Spurs.

Look through the threads of last summer and see how many were predicting us being top in March.

You compare wengers current team with the teams of Gg's last few years which is hardly a fair comparison given that football has changed dramatically since then.

Yeah and who takes a big share of the credit for pushing it along - Wenger.

sagna : in my opinion could quite possibly be the best right back in aw's
era
clichy : might be as good as nutty but not there yet

oh yeah, both big name signings that we had all heard of when he signed them - I think not.

kolo.....good defenders but have to say that TA6 with keown
automatic for me

Right......and of course Kolo was not erractic when he made his debut in 2002, he was a natural central defender with no imput or development from Wenger.

You compare him to Adams (a player who also lost form in the late 80s and needed a degree of faith to develop into the player he became), try comparing him to Ferdinand, who was the result of the instant fix of experience and satisfying the consumers - is Ferdinand better and who cost more?

wingers : not one of our current lot would get in ahead of pires & freddie

As I've mentioned already Pires didn't set the world alight in 2000/01 and looked like he was in Overmars's shadow. Freddie spent a few years as a fringe player, he signed in 1998 and wasn't a 1st team regular until 2001/02.

Short memories.

[Red Gunner]

Cus and Gunnerz4life, your argument is pointless. There is no point whatsoever arguing about who the bigger fan is or whatever

[Cus Geezer]

To follow through your philosophy we should still have TA6 playing centre back cos he was once a great centre back for us

Seeing as it was you comparing the current side to previous ones, it's more likely your style to think Adams should still be there - after all why are you comparing them?

I think it's unfair to claim that Wenger is past his shelflife purely because it isn't even remotely true.

[Gunner4LiF3]

Cus and Gunnerz4life, your argument is pointless. There is no point whatsoever arguing about who the bigger fan is or whatever

dont stop now!
Its just starting to get interesting!

[REB]

be fair, i never once said wenger had to go,, but at the end of the day its the manager that has to be held responable for the club,, and while we are doing better then anyone exected,, i still dont see what bringing up the past has done,, new season new ground and millions to spend on good players and wenger wants to make us the biggest club in the world..
his words,,
not by signing 15 year olds when the first team was crying out for extra quality players

[Bring Back Pires]

In the midst of this thread somewhere, I heard somebody slagging off Pires for his performance in 2000/01. I'll agree that it took him that season to adapt to the English style of play, but he still scored eight goals in the process. The next season, he was voted Football Writers' Player of the Year.

In Hleb's first season, he was shit, scored the odd tap-in at the end of a 7-0 rout, and generally looked like one of our worst signings under Wenger. And as his reward, he gets to keep his place in the Champions League final, whilst the vastly superior and more experienced Pires is substituted after 20 minutes. Wenger's stubborn attitude costs us again. Presumably he kept Hleb on to show that he is Pires' replacement, and that 'Wenger Knows'. Wrong decision. There goes the European Cup.

Since then, Hleb has dazzled us all with is inept passing. Has he been taking lessons from Gilberto? Aside from one outstanding game he had away to Bolton in the FA Cup, he's been terrible. If Inter Milan want him for 12 million, then the offer should be accepted. If they want us to pay them 12 million for them to have him, this should also be accepted.

Bring Back Pires.

[Bring Back Pires]

Double post i'm afraid.

[I Hate Hleb]

VERY INTERESTING - IF A LITTLE OVERHEATED - DEBATE, I MUST SAY.

I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH CUS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A MIGHTY OVER-REACTION TO A COUPLE OF POOR RESULTS AND THAT CALLS FOR WENGER'S HEAD ARE LUDICROUS.

I'VE NOT ALWAYS AGREED WITH WENGER'S PLAYER SIGNINGS, SELECTIONS AND TEAM TACTICS, AND CONFESS THAT IN THE PAST I HAVE ALSO DOUBTED WENGER'S ABILITY TO CONTINUE TAKING US FORWARD. HOWEVER, EVERYTIME THOSE QUESTIONS WITHIN ME WERE RAISED, ARSENE HAS ENDED UP MAKING MY DOUBTS LOOK FOOLISH BY BRINGING SUCCESS OF SORTS.

THE THING WE MUST NOT FORGET WHEN TALKING ABOUT ALL THE ADDITIONAL MONEY WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE DUE TO THE TRANSFER TO ASHBURTON IS THAT IT WAS ALWAYS MADE CLEAR - NOT LEAST BY ARSENE HIMSELF - THAT IT WOULD TAKE US 3 OR 4 YEARS BEING AT THE NEW GROUND TO START SEEING THE FRUITS OF THE MOVE.

JUST BECAUSE THE CLUB HAD A TURN-OVER OF £200 MILLION IT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THAT IT IS RICH. ALTHOUGH NO FINANCIAL EXPERT, I'VE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS THE AMOUNT OF PROFIT THAT WAS THE IMPORTANT THING. IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE £300 MILLION OF DEBTS TO SERVICE, AND ALTHOUGH THAT WILL DECREASE WHEN WE SELL THE HIGHBURY FLATS, ARSENAL WILL HAVE A SIZEABLE CHUNK OF IT STILL TO PAY.

THE SAME THING APPLIES WHEN THE CLUB SAYS IT HAS £70 MILLION IN CASH TO HAND. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IS WHAT THE MANAGER HAS AS A TRANSFER BUDGET - ONLY THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO IT SHOULD IT BE NEEDED.

TO GIVE CREDIT TO WENGER, HE HAS KNOWN ABOUT THE NEGATIVE FINANCIAL IMPACT MOVING GROUNDS WOULD INITIALLY HAVE ON AVAILABLE SPENDING MONEY AND PLANNED ACCORDINGLY BY BUYING YOUNG AND RELATIVELY CHEAP. THE FACT THAT HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EVEN COMPETE DURING THIS PERIOD IS TESTIMONY TO HIS GENUIS AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANOTHER MANAGER THAT WOULD HAVE DONE AS GOOD A JOB AS ARSENE HAS, GIVEN THE EXACT SAME CONDITIONS.

THEY SAY THAT YOU DON'T APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE UNTIL IT'S GONE. I, FOR ONE, HOPE IT'S STILL A VERY LONG TIME BEFORE ARSENAL FANS HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THOSE FEELINGS WITH REGARDS TO WENGER - EVEN IF HE DOESN'T WIN US A TROPHY IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

[Rob]

be fair, i never once said wenger had to go,, but at the end of the day its the manager that has to be held responable for the club,, and while we are doing better then anyone exected,, i still dont see what bringing up the past has done,, new season new ground and millions to spend on good players and wenger wants to make us the biggest club in the world..
his words,,
not by signing 15 year olds when the first team was crying out for extra quality players

Exactly. Addressing the nail on the head.

Few if any are calling for Wenger to quit - and I'm certainly not. But we want a change of transfer policy starting this summer.

I'm sick to death of seeing us hand the Mancs the title. We don't need £50 million on one player. But we do need some considered squad replenishment, with players who can start and finish and EPL game and it's Cup equivalent.

Not frigging teenagers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When he arrived Wenger had the nous to sign players like PV4, Petit and Overmars. The result ? We won the double.

If we want the same result - and I assume we all do ?! - we need a similar response.


If anyone on here can't get their head round that, they aren't thinking straight.

[Hagbard 23]

... IT WAS ALWAYS MADE CLEAR - NOT LEAST BY ARSENE HIMSELF - THAT IT WOULD TAKE US 3 OR 4 YEARS BEING AT THE NEW GROUND TO START SEEING THE FRUITS OF THE MOVE...

This is true, many people seem to have forgotten this fact.

Even after ALL the cash from the Highbury flats has been banked, it will be a while before we have the spending power of the Big Euro' clubs.

Forget statements from the board stating how 'Rich' we are. Every penny AFC make, for at least 2 years, Is already spent !

I understand the frustration felt by many fans, but this is all part of the economics of moving to the Grove.

Don't panic though...THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT!

[I Hate Hleb]

ROB,

THE DIFFERENCE IS, THE TEAM AND SQUAD WENGER TOOK OVER WASN'T THAT STRONG (FINISHED 5TH UNDER RIOCH AND 12TH THE YEAR BEFORE THAT) SO HE NEEDED TO BUY THOSE TYPE OF PLAYERS JUST TO HAVE A COMPETITIVE TEAM. THE FACT WE WENT ON TO DO THE DOUBLE THAT FIRST FULL SEASON SURPRISED WENGER AS MUCH AS ANYONE.

HOWEVER, I'M NOT SURE THE SAME COULD BE SAID OF THIS TEAM.
MOST PEOPLE AGREE THAT OUR FIRST ELEVEN WHEN FIT IS AS GOOD AS ANYONES. IF ANYTHING, IT'S THE BACK-UP SQUAD THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE SAYING NEEDS STRENGTHENING - APART FROM 1 OR 2 INDIVIDUAL PLAYER PREFERENCES.

FUNNILY ENOUGH, IT WAS ONLY THIS AFTERNOON THAT I WAS RECALLING THE DOOM AND DEPRESSION AMONGST SOME GOONERS AFTER WE LOST AT HOME TO BLACKBURN AROUND CHRISTMAS TIME BACK IN SEASON 1997/98. SIMILARLY THERE WERE DOUBTERS IN 2001/2 AND EVEN - BELIEVE IT OR NOT - IN THE EARLY PARTS OF 2003/4.

NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, BUT I BELIEVE WE AS FANS HAVE TO SHOW A LITTLE MORE FAITH, PATIENCE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, A BIT MORE CONFIDENCE THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY DO IT. WE JUST MIGHT PULL THIS OFF WHEN NO-ONE - AND I MEAN NO-ONE - GAVE US A HOPE IN THE SUMMER. LET'S NOT GIVE UP BEFORE THE RACE IS EVEN COMPLETED AND WHILST WE ARE STILL IN THE LEAD.

AS A DAFT OLD DEAR FROM DOWN NORWICH WAY ONCE SAID:

COME ON, LET'S BE HAVING YOU!!


ALL THIS FROM A SELF-CONFESSED PESSIMIST!!

[augie]

Cus, I am and have for some time advocated the need for some quality experienced signings not huge record breaking signings and you and a few others on here seem to overlook that difference. The fee the russian mafia paid for anelka, who is a quality experienced player, would hardly be breaking the bank and would absolutely have improved the quality of this team and the chances of sucess. It is the same arguement as the whole myth that any new signing would destabilise the team morale and quite honestly I find that to be the most bullshit statement ever made on this forum. These players are there to serve our club and to do their utmost to bring success to the club so if a little competition gives them that added incentive to up their game then so much the better. I really dont care if the players are having a cosy love in every week and I would love to know what basis people are coming up with the whole morale arguement - at the end of the day all the best players want success and are driven by that so if a quality player or 2 comes in and helps to acheive that success you will all find a very happy team/squad morale.

Two seasons ago the y*ds came within a lasagne of taking our champions league spot amid the whole "they are catching up with us" theory. I stated at that time that the reason that they almost caught us was more down to our drop in performances than it was due to their improvement. I have also made the arguement that over the last few seasons the standard of football has dropped alarmingly everywhere(last season was the worst manure team in the last 15 years and still won the league) and I believe that may have a large part to do with the fact that we only lost 1 league game so far this season. This team would not live with the Arsenal team from 4 or 5 seasons ago Cus and if you think that they could then you are seriously dilusional my friend. When I look at that obvious fact it is not hard for me to say that we as a team have regressed over the last few seasons not progressed but if you wish to compare it to last season when we were appaling then you are right to say that we have improved but to be honest that would not be hard.

I would also like to disagree or question IHH over his theory on our transfer budget. You say that our 70m war chest is only there for the manager if he needs it so I would ask you what are the parameters for judging the need ? If we are challenging for a league with a seriously small squad that could see a few signings make the difference in our bids for trophies does that qualify as a need or does need only kick in if we are in danger of not qualifying for europe ? If we fail to win the league this season(forget the rest of the comps) then this will go down as an absolute waste of the most glaringly big chance of a league success ever and should that happen then questions SHOULD be asked. You say that our money probs are likely to continue for another few seasons and I ask again do we expect the likes of cesc, gallas etc to wait around for a few more seasons for the club to make the necessary investment that can convert us from the nearly men to champions yet again ? Anyone reading cesc's interview in the club magazine will know how driven by success our young spaniard is.

Anyway in summation I would again agree with rebel in that I am not calling for wenger to be sacked but merely to be held accountable should we fail to win the league this season.

[26may1989]

This team would not live with the Arsenal team from 4 or 5 seasons ago Cus and if you think that they could then you are seriously dilusional my friend. When I look at that obvious fact it is not hard for me to say that we as a team have regressed over the last few seasons not progressed but if you wish to compare it to last season when we were appaling then you are right to say that we have improved but to be honest that would not be hard.

I agree with you, sort of, that the team of 2001 to 2005 was far superior in terms of skill and brilliance than the current team is or could be. With an attack led by Henry, Bergkamp, Ljungberg and Pires, backed up by Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Lauren etc, that's obvious. BUT that team also failed to capitalise on its abilities. Yes, it won the league twice and it got to the CL Final, but there were so many missed opportunities along the way, esp in Europe. I doubt I'll ever see a better Arsenal team than that one but I will always regret their failure to obliterate the opposition with more clinical attacking and more consistent defending.

The current team is different. Once it matures (and we're probably still 1 to 2 years from that time), it might not have the glitz of their predecessors but it is already clear that they have greater focus, determination and (even with the histrionics of Gallas, Ade and Bendtner) team harmony. They are better built to get the best out of their abilities than the old side.

I agree we need to make some quality signings - United had a poor squad last year and probably only won the league through a mixture of shear determination and Chelsea's internal problems (as well as our ongoing transitional phase), but they showed what to do when you win - improve. Their summer signings were excellent and could well win them the league this year.

Wherever we finish this season, we need to follow suit and deepen the quality of the squad.

[I Hate Hleb]

AUGIE,

THE PARAMETERS AS TO WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO SPEND IS SET BY THE BOARD. THE PARAMETERS FOR WHAT WE ACTUALLY SPEND ARE OBVIOUSLY BEING SET BY WENGER, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE BELIEVES IS NEEDED.

YOU SAY YOU'RE SICK AND TIRED OF BEING TOLD THAT ADDITIONAL SIGNINGS COULD EFFECT THE TEAM, YET THERE IS EQUALLY NO GUARANTEE THAT THEY WOULDN'T OR THAT WE WOULD BE IN THE POSITION WE ARE CURRENTLY HAD WE MADE THOSE SUMMER SIGNINGS YOU AND MOST OF US WERE CALLING FOR. YOU CAN'T IGNORE THE FACT THAT LIVERPOOL, NEWCASTLE AND SPURS ALL SPENT MONEY AND SUPPOSEDLY 'IMPROVED' THEIR SQUADS, YET ALL HAVE HAD A WORSE LEAGUE SEASON THAN LAST YEAR.

INDEED, ONE OF THE REASONS FOR OUR SUCCESS SO FAR THIS SEASON - ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES - HAS BEEN THE TOGETHERNESS OF THE YOUNG SQUAD AND THEIR DETERMINATION TO PROVE PEOPLE WRONG.

YOU SAY WENGER SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT DON'T EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS. WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE THE CLUB DO? SACK WENGER? FORCE HIM TO BUY MORE PLAYERS, EVEN IF HE DOESN'T WANT THEM? BUY PLAYERS ABOVE HIS HEAD - LIKE ABRAMOVICH DID AT CHELSEA? HOW EXACTLY DO YOU PLAN TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE?

I DON'T DOUBT YOUR PASSION FOR ARSENAL AND YOUR DESIRE TO SEE THEM SUCCEED. BUT TO CLAIM US NOT WINNING THE LEAGUE WOULD BE THE WORST CAPITULATION IN RECENT HISTORY IS PURE NONSENSE.

THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS - IF ANY - SHOULD BE ASKED AT THE END OF THE SEASON, NOT WHILE WE ARE TOP AND STILL IN WITH A GENUINE CHANCE OF WINNING THE LEAGUE. EVEN THEN, ANY CRITICISM SHOULD BE BALANCED AND SHOULD TAKE ACCOUNT OF WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF US AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON AND WHAT WE HAVE ACCOMPLISHED.

NOW THAT WOULD BE A FAIR AND BALANCED WAY OF DOING THINGS, NOT THE CONTINUOUS DIATRIBES THAT SEEM TO HAVE COME OUT FROM YOU THROUGHOUT THE SEASON - REGARDLESS OF OUR POSITION AT THE TIME.

FECK ME, WE ALREADY HAVE MOST OF THE MEDIA AGAINST US. WE DON'T NEED GOONERS TURNING ON THE CLUB AND WENGER AS WELL. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS NO REAL REASON TO.