THE WENGER THREAD

[remigardeshair]

Schwartz was a great player, but he really pissed me off in the seconf half of his time at the club, once he'd decided his time was up he went missing in most of our games, except, surprise surprise, the ones where he was really in the shop window, the Sampdoria semi, and the final itself (he was outstanding in that game) The rest of the time he couldnt be arsed.

[DB10GOONER]

I agree. Just because we're all pissed off with Wenger its wrong that his earlier achievements are disregarded completely or simply down to the players. He's just a guy completely unsuited to the post Abramovich era of money buys success; its against his prinicples and rather than swallow it up like Ferguson did and move with the times he sticks to an outdated notion that buying cheap will one day blossom into success. People now look back at the GG era with rose tinted specs, but he went the same way.....achieving great success in the old Division 1 days pre-Sky money buy plucking the likes of Dixon, Bould, Winterburn etc up from the likes of Stoke and Wimbledon, but couldn't cope with the era of £5m+ transfer fees and the influx of foreign stars

Both men stuck rigidly to the formulas that brought early success but were unable to adapt to changing times

Sad really

The evidence is to the contrary mate.

George did adapt in Europe and didnt stick rigidly to a formula. He put out a good team in 1991 and although we had several great chances against Benfica at home in 91 they more or less played around us and eventually took over. When George fot another crack at it in the CWC, he went with a different formation and attitude. We played controlled football and beat many more highly ranked teams, team which at the time contained some of the best players in the world.

I think that proves that he could adapt. Unfortunately, he lost his way in league football and probably more a victim of his ego, as is Wenger now.

The evidence is not to the contrary (although heaven forbid you should want to take the contrary view with me eh ) GG was leading us to mid-table mediocrity. His past 2 seasons produced some of the most one dimesnioanl boring football I have ever witnessed - Morrow, Selley, Jensen, Hillier - lets hope Wrighty nicks a goal and shut up shop. At the time United were producing some of the most exciting football around. You should time travel back to the mid-90s because the fans mood at the time was not too different to what it is now......people were screaming for GG to splash the cash and instead he was fucking around with the likes of McGoldrick, Pates, Kiwomya, Lydersen etc. You've simply forgotten how bad that era was. What I do agree with is that GG could get us up for big games in the cup and organised us far better defensively. But we'd become just a cup side....the league was over before it began

By the way - Limpar was bough pre-Sky. Jensen was a terrible buy and he was laughed at in the way our other great Dane is now. Schwarz was reasonably succesful but ultimately GG couldn't hold on to him

I loved GG to bits but Ifolk genuinely forget how poor those final couple of years were and how stubborn the fans accused him of being in the transfer market

Agree with most of that. GG was turning us into a cup team. I loved the man for bringing the pride back to The Arsenal and making us winners again, and still maintain that his 91 title side never got the credit it deserved as one of the great modern title winning teams, but ultimately his time had come. We were terrible to watch in those last 2 seasons and were floundering towards mid table mediocrity. I also believe if GG had stayed in 1995 IWWW8 would have been gone that summer.

[remigardeshair]

I think it was that Benfica defeat that really did for GG - From the next season on he set the team up to be far more defensively minded and as someone else said, rely on Wrighty to nick a goal at the other end. It worked in the cups against the better sides, but it was never going to be remotely successful over the long haul of a league campaign which is why we ended up mid table, 'luxury' players like Anders warming the bench while Morrow and Selley strutted their stuff out on the pitch.

He did also mirror some of the behaviours we see now from Arsene, albeit with different numbers - Quibbling over fees for people like Keane and ummmm Geoff Thomas so that they ended up going elsewhere. I'm sure I remember reading that he turned down the chance to sign Kanchelskis because he couldnt speak English.

[kiwomya]

Schwarz was reasonably succesful but ultimately GG couldn't hold on to him

Schwarz was still at the club when Graham was sacked. Not sure what GG could've done about it four months after his contract was terminated?

I seem to recall that Schwartz had made it clear long before GG left that he wanted to go. Something about his wife or family hating London?

But a couple of years later found themselves in Sunderland....

[DB10GOONER]

Schwarz was reasonably succesful but ultimately GG couldn't hold on to him

Schwarz was still at the club when Graham was sacked. Not sure what GG could've done about it four months after his contract was terminated?

I seem to recall that Schwartz had made it clear long before GG left that he wanted to go. Something about his wife or family hating London?

But a couple of years later found themselves in Sunderland....

That's right! I remember thinking at the time "what happened there? Did she leave him?"

[remigardeshair]

I've completely forgotten who we sold him to, was it Fiorentina?

Lisbon - London - Florence - Sunderland

[augie]

I suppose the difference is that within a couple of years of GG losing his way he was gone.
Wenger lost his way in maybe 2009, 2010? and he is STILL HERE !!

I think that is a lot of the problem - the club or DD decided quickly that they didn't like the direction the club was going and took swift action to remedy it. Of course it was convenient that the whole saga over the missing money kicked off thus giving them the excuse needed to dispense with GG but they took the opportunity all the same. Wenker on the other hand has been allowed to, initially bring the clubs progress to a shuddering halt, and in recent years he has presided over a very significant decline in our standards and ambitions. If he had of been replaced 3 seasons ago then I would still feel a level of affection for him and his achievements, but now his rep will be forever tarnished in my eyes and I wouldn't even want him attending a match in the grove as a supporter whenever the day comes that he fcuks off - that will seem harsh to some considering all he won for us, but when a man puts his own ego and vanity above what is good for the club, then he is entitled to zero respect imo

Personally, as a GG disciple, I think that the club treated him appallingly - given what he did for the club as a manager (and to a lesser degree as a player) they should have allowed him to resign rather than sack him. Yes we had become a boring team to watch but we, as a club, at least owed him him the chance to walk away on his own terms instead of firing him and hanging him out to dry I know that we have had some enjoyable seasons under wenker but no season will ever mean as much to me as the 88/89 season and not just for the way it finished - we broke the victims dominance and we did it with a no small amount of Arsenal spirit that was instilled in the team by GG

[remigardeshair]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

[DB10GOONER]

I suppose the difference is that within a couple of years of GG losing his way he was gone.
Wenger lost his way in maybe 2009, 2010? and he is STILL HERE !!

Personally, as a GG disciple, I think that the club treated him appallingly - given what he did for the club as a manager (and to a lesser degree as a player) they should have allowed him to resign rather than sack him. Yes we had become a boring team to watch but we, as a club, at least owed him him the chance to walk away on his own terms instead of firing him and hanging him out to dry I know that we have had some enjoyable seasons under wenker but no season will ever mean as much to me as the 88/89 season and not just for the way it finished - we broke the victims dominance and we did it with a no small amount of Arsenal spirit that was instilled in the team by GG

Agreed 100%. GG wasn't the only manager that took bungs in that era. The club owed GG more than a sacking. He should have been allowed to resign. Also agree that nothing will ever beat the 89 season for me - and that's not to denigrate Arsenes wins with the 98 and 02 doubles or the Invincibles either. Just that 89 was a one off after 18 years of hope and loss and depression and then to win it like that, on their patch, it was simply the greatest moment ever.

Whilst I would say Arsene is the greatest Arsenal manager ever (2 Doubles and an unbeaten league season playing the most attractive exciting football I've ever seen) I've never warmed to Arsene the way I did to GG. GG was proper Arsenal, he was old-school, he was tradition, he was pride and guts and grit. I even forgave him going to the vermin.

[DB10GOONER]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

I dunno... things were different. People seemed to put up with more back then. I remember being at games where basically the whole crowd just abused our own players and then would sing their name when they scored. No one would tell anyone they were "disloyal" for doing so either or suggest they should fuck off and support tottingham or chavski or whoever... just saying.

[Theoperator]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

I dunno... things were different. People seemed to put up with more back then. I remember being at games where basically the whole crowd just abused our own players and then would sing their name when they scored. No one would tell anyone they were "disloyal" for doing so either or suggest they should fuck off and support tottingham or chavski or whoever... just saying.

Fully agree with all of this - people seem a lot less tolerant of others views now- particularly desperate to see fights between fellow Gooners last season, the whole AKB/WOB stuff trivialises what is a big problem at the club right now- a manager with a great early legacy clinging on, he just polarises views so much. All terribly sad, and honestly if you really sit down and carfully look at it it is rather clear how bad things have got but with a bit of gloss is easy to miss.

The transfer windows fiascos/ lack of key players/selling key players/wage negotiations just a few examples all seem too often have gone wrong recently yet seemingly noone questions it in the boardroom or on high

[DB10GOONER]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

I dunno... things were different. People seemed to put up with more back then. I remember being at games where basically the whole crowd just abused our own players and then would sing their name when they scored. No one would tell anyone they were "disloyal" for doing so either or suggest they should fuck off and support tottingham or chavski or whoever... just saying.

Fully agree with all of this - people seem a lot less tolerant of others views now-

Also, I'd say that another huge cultural change is that now everyone (through the internet/social media/youtube/etc) has a voice in the media whereas back then we simply didn't, and (possibly more importantly) now everyone thinks they are ENTITLED to that voice. Honestly, how many pubs would you go into on match day and hear Gooners discussing the Board's finances back in 1989 or how many fanzines would have articles about same? Now we discuss these things on forums and everybody has an opinion, everybody is an "expert". Add to this the prevalent "I want it now" and "My 15 minutes of fame" culture of today and the circumstances are hugely different.

[remigardeshair]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

I dunno... things were different. People seemed to put up with more back then. I remember being at games where basically the whole crowd just abused our own players and then would sing their name when they scored. No one would tell anyone they were "disloyal" for doing so either or suggest they should fuck off and support tottingham or chavski or whoever... just saying.

Things are indeed very different. I'm not sure I remember players being abused back then, of course we had our boo boys, Paul Davis took an age to be accepted by the crowd in the early 80s. The abuse these days seems an awful lot more vitriolic and unforgiving, I dread to think what would have become of poor Gus Caesar had he been playing in the current climate

[OneBardGooner]

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archiv ... onth-award

The Ox deserves this.

Amazing to see how many Ramsey won at the start of the season....well until the medical team got their hands on him (again).

[augie]

If we'd have had the internets back then I wonder, following the Derby defeat and Wimbledon draw, someone would have started a GRAHAM - Views For and Against thread

I dunno... things were different. People seemed to put up with more back then. I remember being at games where basically the whole crowd just abused our own players and then would sing their name when they scored. No one would tell anyone they were "disloyal" for doing so either or suggest they should fuck off and support tottingham or chavski or whoever... just saying.

Fully agree with all of this - people seem a lot less tolerant of others views now-

Also, I'd say that another huge cultural change is that now everyone (through the internet/social media/youtube/etc) has a voice in the media whereas back then we simply didn't, and (possibly more importantly) now everyone thinks they are ENTITLED to that voice. Honestly, how many pubs would you go into on match day and hear Gooners discussing the Board's finances back in 1989 or how many fanzines would have articles about same? Now we discuss these things on forums and everybody has an opinion, everybody is an expert. Add to this the prevalent "I want it now" and "My 15 minutes of fame" culture of today and the circumstances are hugely different.

Not everybody is but I will accept that honour with my usual modesty