The Rooney Rule

[Never Outgunned]

Sure Chris Houghton was forced out at Newcastle, but he walked straight back into a job because he’s a good coach. And he wasn’t forced out because he was black – if that was the case he’d never have been made manager in the first place.

Houghton did an excellent job at Newcastle and is a top manager IMO, but we can’t just assume that he was sacked because he was black. That is a huge assumption and a completely unfounded accusation.

Is there a black equivalent of Alan Pardew who despite multiple failure gets another crack at a Premiership job at the expense of a white manager doing a good job?

[worthing_gooner]

In addition to that – Chairmen in the Premier League are often foreign themselves, so this is not a case of white people not employing black people, but of foreign chairmen not employing black managers.

But where do we stop? Why do they not employ just black managers? If they hold some kind of racist grudge then why do they employ Spaniards, Italians etc?

This isn't just about the premiership - there are only 2 black managers in all four divisions.

I guess we could go around in circles with this debate all day but I’d be interested to ask Never Outgunned one question, not strictly football related but important nonetheless – if English football clubs are racist for not employing black managers, does that mean the MOBOs are racist for not allowing white music? Or Black History Month is racist for not allowing white history? As I said, the debate could go round and round for ages, but I’d like to think in this day and age, if a black person was good enough, they’d get the job.

Yawn!

Yet another tiresome response from race relations rosetinters - the MOBOs are a dated concept now granted, however they emanate from a time where British black musicians got less coverage than they do now. From the days when Soul II Soul or Incognito would be generally overlooked for Brits that were usually given to Duran Duran or Stock, Aitken and Waterman.

Same with black history month, if your history is overlooked on the ciriculum you need a special month to point it out.

Lessons on the ciriculum about white history are usually called 'History lessons' on the ciriculum - to have a white history month would make no sense.

[/quote]

That's absolute rubbish and you know it. In fact, I did an A-Level in History in 2006 and part of the curriculum was civil rights in the states, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X etc. It's not overlooked in any way, shape or form and this is just another do-gooder comment from the PC brigade which harms relations more than it does good.

Black civil rights are an important part of the curriculum in british schools, so why do schools need a black history month too?

The fact is, there are many other facets to history which aren't studied in serious depth - we don't study Ancient Egypt after primary school - does that mean we are racist against Egyptians? We don't study Chinese history or the Cambodian atrocities - does that mean we're racist against Asians?

With regards your point on Alan Pardew's "multiple failures", he's actually a very good manager (albeit a bit of a tosser )

He won promotion with Reading from the old division 2 and over the coming seasons got Reading to the Div 1 playoffs. He got West Ham in the playoffs in 03-04, his first season in charge there, and then won promotion with West Ham in 04-05 back to the Prem, then finished 9th in the first season back and got West Ham to the FA Cup Final which they nearly won against Liverpool.

In 06-07 he had a poor run of form at West Ham which saw him sacked. He went to Charlton and took over a team in 19th place with a -20 goal difference and this ended up in the first relegation of his career - not unexpectedly given the circumstances of his takeover.

At Southampton, he took them from -10 points after their deduction to the brink of the playoffs and won the Football League Trophy in 2010, their first trophy since 1976, and left them with a squad capable of gaining promotion a season later with the likes of Rickie Lambert.

So Pardew's appointment at Newcastle can hardly be said to be on the back of "multiple failures". He's a good manager who has worked his way up through the ranks from lower leagues.

Your argument is weak and you haven't done your research.

[Never Outgunned]

That's absolute rubbish and you know it. In fact, I did an A-Level in History in 2006 and part of the curriculum was civil rights in the states, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X etc.


It's not overlooked in any way, shape or form and this is just another do-gooder comment from the PC brigade which harms relations more than it does good.

I did A-Level history a decade earlier, the civil rights bit was also on it. It was however largely a footnote in comparison to European history which was a footprint on the ciriculum.

I think you'll find in the days before anyone thought up the idea of a Black History month you never even had that tiny footnote on the ciriculum. That you see was it's purpose, you're wrongly using its minor success as a reason for it's irrelevance.

As for the more harm than good quote - now who's getting sensationalist?

The fact is, there are many other facets to history which aren't studied in serious depth - we don't study Ancient Egypt after primary school - does that mean we are racist against Egyptians? We don't study Chinese history or the Cambodian atrocities - does that mean we're racist against Asians?

That would be a relevant point if we had an Egyptian population as big as the Black population we have in the UK.

As for Chinese history, as part of the Cold War/WW2 China and the development of Communism in China/the East gets far more coverage than the black civil rights movement on the ciriculum.

With regards your point on Alan Pardew's "multiple failures", he's actually a very good manager (albeit a bit of a tosser )

Do you reckon Chris Hughton or any other Black manager would find themselves a job in the Premiership after getting sacked by West Ham, Charlton and Southampton?

At the expense of a white manager that got his side promotion the season earlier?

[Henry Norris 1913]

Oh my god, only just noticed a couple of morons here decided to intentionally misinterpret my post to feign offence so they can practise they're "I hate racism oh so much" rants

I'd like to say that I have no hatred or negative feelings towards black people . My post was supposed to be treated as TONGUE IN CHEEK, hence the smilie.
Neither do I think being black is similar to being physically handicapped ( I'm actually not trying to explain myself to Babatunde as I have absolutely no respect for the *word censored*, but Never Outgunned)

I think that "giving minorities a chance" is great, but I'm sure clubs already do that. This rule is assuming every club has racist ethics. IMO its a step backwards to eliminating discrimination as it is treating black managers ALMOST as if they need help.
There is no purpose in treating black people differently , its backward and old fashioned . If your still offended by my post I really think you need help.

[SWLGooner]

That's absolute rubbish and you know it. In fact, I did an A-Level in History in 2006 and part of the curriculum was civil rights in the states, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X etc.


It's not overlooked in any way, shape or form and this is just another do-gooder comment from the PC brigade which harms relations more than it does good.

I did A-Level history a decade earlier, the civil rights bit was also on it. It was however largely a footnote in comparison to European history which was a footprint on the ciriculum.

Maybe that was, say, because you were studying it in Europe?

I have done both American and UK history exams, and believe me when I say there is a lot of civil rights stuff in the US compared to here. That's because it is a) more relevant and b) easier for them to relate to. Simply the way things work, don't they.

You could just study, say, elephants, in Biology. You study humans, because it's relevant and more interesting, as you can relate to it. Obviously you study humans at medical school, but before that you still don't study animals.

[flash gunner]

Oh my god, only just noticed a couple of morons here decided to intentionally misinterpret my post to feign offence so they can practise they're "I hate racism oh so much" rants

I'd like to say that I have no hatred or negative feelings towards black people . My post was supposed to be treated as TONGUE IN CHEEK, hence the smilie.
Neither do I think being black is similar to being physically handicapped ( I'm actually not trying to explain myself to Babatunde as I have absolutely no respect for the c**t, but Never Outgunned)

I think that "giving minorities a chance" is great, but I'm sure clubs already do that. This rule is assuming every club has racist ethics. IMO its a step backwards to eliminating discrimination as it is treating black managers ALMOST as if they need help.
There is no purpose in treating black people differently , its backward and old fashioned . If your still offended by my post I really think you need help.

For what its worth i read Henry Norris' post and didnt think it was racist at all but as usual things get blown out of proportion on here mainly by people with an agenda...... I agree with him too that black managers shouldnt get a help in getting jobs... The best man should get the interview and then job whether he is white, black or asian, positive discimination is a load of bollocks

[LDB]

Again you talk about packing in his coaching career early. Says who? How do you know how many coaching positions Davis has put himself forward for? I'm astounded at your knowledge you've never met me or Paul Davis though you know what newspaper I read and how many jobs he's put himself forward for - that is unless you're filling the gaps in your knowledge with a prefixed stereotype, but I'm sure that's not the case!

How do you?

To be honest mate, i think its time YOU started providing some evidence for your claims. If you dont know where to start, here are some things said/implied by you that could use some beefing up:

-A significant number of white people in english football think black people are mentally inferior.
- Chris Hughton was sacked because he was black.
- John Barnes and Paul Ince were sacked because they are black.

Other then the 25%-2% statistic which is of questionable significance how has your approach to this thread been any different to mine? You choose to take the perceptions and views of paul davis and others as gospel truth, ive interpreted them differently. Get over yourself.

[DB10GOONER]

I've been asked to check HenryNorris's comments on this thread. They are not racism to me. They could be considered crass, low brow, a bit ignorant and (to some) offensive, because he mentioned handicapped people, but they do not cross the racism boundary. They are not racially insulting, spreading racial hatred or inciting racial hatred.

He has stated it was a tongue in cheek remark and we have to accept him at his word on that as it can be read that way. It's a risky subject this one because the written word is so much harder to inject nuance and tone into.

But as most here know, WE DO NOT TOLERATE RACISM. Anyone found to be racist will be banned.

[frankbutcher]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Why do we need more black managers? English Clubs are doing well enough as it is. We compete well in Europe. The Premier League is a top league. At the present point in time everyone goes for the job on their own merits. Why do we need positive discrimination? All this does is de-mean the efforts of genuinely good black coaches and managers. Football is a result game, where you can be relegated if an in-experienced coach is given a go and it fails. If I owned a football club, i wouldn''t want candidates foisted upon me.

The Tomlin rule is a red herring. NFL is a franchise with no relegation. College Football is an environment where black coaches can cut their teeth (as can white coaches). There is no real pressure as Clubs will not go bust. I know College Football is a big thing, but livelihoods don't depend upon it, to the extent it does in England.

In any case, when you look at black coaches who have made it, it is because they are management material.... Ince, Tigana, Rijkaard, Hughton, Rosenior, Powell. Barnes was never management material. Just look at him fluff his lines nightly on John Barnes' Soccer Night. It was cringeworthy. Can you imagine him addressing the team before a game like that. Barnes failed because he wasn't good enough. Ince failed, because Blackburn were struggling and were flirting with relegation.

Who else is there? Earl Barrett.......... Paul Davis from what I hear from an ex-Arsenal player and scout, was very good at youth coaching, but couldn't transfer it to senior squads.

One final note....look at African teams in past World Cups..... Senegal, Cameroon, Ivory Coast. Why do they always choose WHITE European managers? Are they racist?

OutGunned AGAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[Never Outgunned]

Maybe that was, say, because you were studying it in Europe?

Yes right, I get the point. I also acknowledge the there is only so much that can be fitted on the cirrculum to be studied in schools in a mainstream history lesson, which is why a black history month is relevant and necessary is it not?

If there's a significant number of people here, whose history and experience is not covered in any way is it not necessary for a Black history month as much for our sakes if not for theres to inform us of their history, who they are, why they are here in the first place and our role in it?

More necessary than a 'white' history month, when the history curriculum in schools for ten months out of eleven is 'white' history month?

I have done both American and UK history exams, and believe me when I say there is a lot of civil rights stuff in the US compared to here. That's because it is a) more relevant and b) easier for them to relate to. Simply the way things work, don't they.

You could just study, say, elephants, in Biology. You study humans, because it's relevant and more interesting, as you can relate to it. Obviously you study humans at medical school, but before that you still don't study animals.

Er...yes fella, that's kind of the point I made to you when you asked why the lack of coverage of Egyptian history was more racist than the lack of coverage of black history

[Never Outgunned]

Paul Davis from what I hear from an ex-Arsenal player and scout, was very good at youth coaching, but couldn't transfer it to senior squads.

Oh really? Ex-Arsenal players have been speaking to little old insignificant you!

Who are these ex-Arsenal players? Cliff Bastin? Dennis Compton? George Armstrong? David Rocastle?

Do they visit you in the night like Marley's Ghost?

I'd call the nurse over and get her to up your dosage if I were you, Frank.

The only ex-Arsenal player your ever likely to come into contact with is Peter Storey, selling you a blow up doll and a copy of Pregnant and Milking part three from his Soho Sex Shop.

[Deise Gooner]

Always Outgunned you are now talking out of your arse im afraid. This has turned from a debate about a rule brought in to help black candidates into you banging on about our lack of coverage of black history in the education system Over here most of our history that is taught in school is in relation to Ireland because guess what thats where i live. We also learn about the civils rights movement in the US etc. but to say we over look black history is nonsense becasue frankly there werent many black people in ireland until the last 30 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

Morgan Freeman gets it spot on there and its people like you that think they are do gooders that are seperating us and black and white when the people that you call race rose tinters dont see any skin colour at all.

[Never Outgunned]

Always Outgunned you are now talking out of your arse im afraid. This has turned from a debate about a rule brought in to help black candidates into you banging on about our lack of coverage of black history in the education system .

Perhaps you want to read through the thread again - I wasn't the one that brought up Black history month, somebody else did.

Over here most of our history that is taught in school is in relation to Ireland because guess what thats where i live. We also learn about the civils rights movement in the US etc. but to say we over look black history is nonsense becasue frankly there werent many black people in ireland until the last 30 years.

For fuck sake.

I am I now gonna get 'oh live in the Falklands and we don't have black history on the cirriculum because...guess what...there's no black people here!

That's not the fucking point - we (the UK) have a significantly large black population most of whose history doesn't find it's way onto the curriculum - hence why we have a black history month and not a white history month.

Now that answers the question as to why a black history month isn't racist, a question I never asked and a tangent I never dragged this discussion to.

Are you happy now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

Morgan Freeman gets it spot on there and its people like you that think they are do gooders that are seperating us and black and white when the people that you call race rose tinters dont see any skin colour at all

mmm...yes, in the words of Homer Simpson 'actors, is there anything they don't know'.

I suppose on the question of whether working class kids are priced out of higher education we should take heed of Danny fucking Dyer's opinion on things shall we?

[flash gunner]

I suppose on the question of whether working class kids are priced out of higher education we should take heed of Danny fucking Dyer's opinion on things shall we?

Why what did he say about it?

[Never Outgunned]

I suppose on the question of whether working class kids are priced out of higher education we should take heed of Danny fucking Dyer's opinion on things shall we?

Why what did he say about it?

He said 'up the apples and pairs, I go to Canvey Island for my 'olidays, learned every fing about life on the streets and now to protect my manna!'

Words of wisdom I'm sure, after all he is an actor and his opinions hold great weight because he is after all working class - unlike you Mr Guardian reader with your fancy matching shoes!