THE WENGER THREAD

[northbank123]

To cut a long story short, wenger shouldnt have to put up with that disgusting abuse that he gets from other fans but he still needs to be replaced as Arsenal manager - everything else is just window dressing

Maybe we could just dispose with the forum and people could e-mail their thoughts into you for you to produce a succinct summary of matters? Maybe a rival fanzine?

[DB10GOONER]

To cut a long story short, wenger shouldnt have to put up with that disgusting abuse that he gets from other fans but he still needs to be replaced as Arsenal manager - everything else is just window dressing

Maybe we could just dispose with the forum and people could e-mail their thoughts into you for you to produce a succinct summary of matters? Maybe a rival fanzine?

[clockender1]

It is much more difficult to win trophies than it was 10 years ago, in those days we only had to get past manure. Now its Chelski and City, even the spuds are starting to compete. The team seems to have much more spirit than it did a few years ago, all the tossers have now left. Last season no doubt losing fab and nasri shook our team to the core and we nearly imploded but this season the newcomers seem to have plugged the void left by RVP. For me its more satisfying seeing goals coming from all areas of the pitch.

I don't think we will be world beaters anytime soon but we are starting to look like a team with a few more shrewd signings will compete. And that's good enough for me, i've supported Arsenal long enough to know we don't have a devine right to win things. All the plastics and JCL's can fuck off and support chelski as far as I am concerned.

This.

People are kidding themselves if they thinking Wenger going will usher in a new big spending consistent championship winning era under mourinho or pep or whoever.

Moyes, pulis or allardyce are much more likely, and on the same budget.

I get the sense that the same people predicting glory after Wenger, are the same people who thought leaving Highbury would lead to greater things.

Thanks to the back five that GG built, and creaming off the creme of French talent at a cut price rate, we punched above our weight, but now it's becoming increasingly expensive just to that.

I like the way this team is shaping up, and I think that we'll be lucky if we get one league title in the next five years.

[nexum5me]

if someone offered me 1 league title within the next 5 years i'd bite their hand off!


i can't see us competing for the league for the foreseeable future, we're now in the 2nd tier of teams, the ones that potentially might trouble the (now) big 3 (manchesters plus chelsea) in one off games, but are unlikely to finish above even one, let alone all, of them (chelsea had a strange one last season but normal service seems to be resumed)
in our current form, i think the best we can really hope for is 4th.
I'M NOT SAYING I APPROVE OF THIS, AND THAT I DON'T THINK CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE! (before i get attacked)

that's just how it is, and what i expect from us in our current state

[DB10GOONER]

It is much more difficult to win trophies than it was 10 years ago, in those days we only had to get past manure. Now its Chelski and City, even the spuds are starting to compete. The team seems to have much more spirit than it did a few years ago, all the tossers have now left. Last season no doubt losing fab and nasri shook our team to the core and we nearly imploded but this season the newcomers seem to have plugged the void left by RVP. For me its more satisfying seeing goals coming from all areas of the pitch.

I don't think we will be world beaters anytime soon but we are starting to look like a team with a few more shrewd signings will compete. And that's good enough for me, i've supported Arsenal long enough to know we don't have a devine right to win things. All the plastics and JCL's can fuck off and support chelski as far as I am concerned.

This.

People are kidding themselves if they thinking Wenger going will usher in a new big spending consistent championship winning era under mourinho or pep or whoever.

Moyes, pulis or allardyce are much more likely, and on the same budget.

I get the sense that the same people predicting glory after Wenger, are the same people who thought leaving Highbury would lead to greater things.

Thanks to the back five that GG built, and creaming off the creme of French talent at a cut price rate, we punched above our weight, but now it's becoming increasingly expensive just to that.

I like the way this team is shaping up, and I think that we'll be lucky if we get one league title in the next five years.

But who is actually thinking or saying these things?

My feeling is that alot of the people that want Wenger gone (me included) want him gone because he has been here too long, has failed repeatedly to address the issues that need addressing, has retained poor players waaaaay past their sell-by, has let his comfort zone dictate his ideas, and has no plan B. I certainly don't believe any new manager will be given billions to spend and to a certain extent I agree with that. But it is HOW that new manager might spend the available funds that matters; as in, NOT rewarding shit players with massive pay rises and improved contracts on the back of achieving fuck all.

I believe we need a new man with new ideas. Sure we mightn't win anything for a few years even then, but is that any worse than the constant frustration Wenger has dished up for 7 seasons now?

[augie]

Nail on the head DB10 - for me it comes down to a straight choice.............are you satisfied with where we are or do you aspire to better ? I for one aspire to be better and I dont see us progressing under wenger and people can go over the top with what appears to be a good start to the season but prior to the shammers game we had our 3rd worst start to the season since the formation of the premier league and that seems to have gone un-noticed

I like the players wenger brought in this summer and I am happy with the purchases of arteta and mertesacker last summer but I do not believe that these moves absolve wenger of doubts going forward. He still hasnt addressed the goalkeeping situation to anything like an acceptable level, he has still left us thread bare up front and is still showing way too much loyalty to injury prone players - I have long argued that the policy of re-instating the likes of gibbs and diaby to the starting team when fit is madness cos you are constantly changing the team then with each new injury and then return from injury thus preventing any continuity if the team There is something totally wrong about planning a team with players that are constantly injured yet our CIC constantly does it

I have never gone along with the theory that we have overacheived under wenger - the man took over a team with the best defensive spine ever seen in the english game and the nucleas of a team that had won 2 league titles, a domestic cup double and a cup winners cup title so basically it didnt require major surgery to make them winners again. People point to the wealth of citeeh and the chavs (and to a lesser degree manure) and suggest that finishing 4th is our level but for me we are majorly underacheiving - look at the teams that are beating us in recent seasons and it reads like a who is who of relegation candidates Is it not possible that a different manager would be tactically superior to wenger (nobody doubts that part surely) and be able to counter opposition gameplans and god forbid even have a Plan B ? It has been a major issue for me in recent seasons that far too often wenger seems incapable of motivating his players especially against so called lower teams and part of that is people in every walk of life do start to tune out when listening to the same voice and same instructions year after year and a new voice would def address that imo.

Look the bottom line is this, I dont know that a new manager will take us back to the pinnacle of english football again but I do feel that we are stagnated and gone backwards under a manager that was great and who has become battle weary and lost his focus - I thought that getting rid of GG would consigned us to the role of also rans once again but it didnt turn out that way and I know that life will go on when wenger finally departs

[SteveO 35]

Some great points Augie. I think we've been here a few times before but essentially you've summed it up.

Quite simply people either buy in to the 'Wenger story' or they don't. A great part of that for me is whether you have a fear of the future i.e. he leaves and we go further backwards, or you look forward to it with renewed hope that a new manager will improve things. Personally, its the latter for me.

Nobody disputes that City and Chelsea's money makes it harder to win the league, but nor should those people dispute that we have had opportunities to win trophies over the past few years that Wenger has spurned (Birmingham being the prime example, but a weakened side against the Chavs in an FA Cup semi, passing up the chance to play a stronger CC final team in 2007 etc etc, not to mention any number of lamentable FA Cup defeats - 0-4 at OT, 1-3 at Stoke etc). He has chosen to abandon domestic cups in the pursuit of bigger prizes and to my mind given the increasinly long period without a trophy of any description that is unforgiveable.

Like Augie I am pleased with the likes of Arteta and Cazorla but for every one of them there's a Chamakh or a Park and so I hotly dispute the arguments which put Wenger forward as some sort of genius in the transfer market. I don't think his record in that department is as good as David Moyes but I know others beg to differ.

Similarly I think this 'second to none' record of bringing through youth talent is no better than average, in fact in recent years I think the breakthrough rate is disappointing. Now, this is clearly not all down to Wenger but by the same token nor is it solely down to him to take the plaudits when a Wilshere type prodigy emerges. The fact that we have not brought through a single home grown striker (of decent PL standard) of our own in 16 years of Wenger is frankly damning

I will forever be grateful to him for some of my happiest memories as a Gooner and they are times that will never be forgotten. But just in the same way the end of GG's reign became tired and predictable, this particular chapter in Arsenal's history is going the same way (and has been for a few seasons now)

[clockender1]

Quite simply people either buy in to the 'Wenger story' or they don't.

i don't.

i want him to pull his socks up, and i think some of his success may have been a coincidence of timing, luck and others misfortune - who of us knew in 1991 that the mickeys would never win it again, for example ? had they been challengers in 1998 and 2002, and 2004, we may have only had one title...

I think that he has the potential to bring us another league title and FA cups, i do. but i can see the failings with keepers, the youth project, set pieces and a lack of plan "B".

i also understand that in the past he's shown little inclination to learn from his mistakes, so i'm on the fence.

what he has got going for him is that there is a different approach this year - the purchases of Cazorla and Pod early, the addition of Giroud, the rotational strike force with forehead and Feo in there.

we look more like we have a plan B, and the tippy tappy stuff has gone - and we've even scored three goals from set pieces in six PL games, which either means we're practicing them or we're just better at them, sadly though we're still shit at defending them...

i'm also pleased that we're not bowing to walcotts wage demands and breaking the wage structure for an inconsistently performing "england regular" - it looks like the wage apocalypse of 2006 onwards is now over too.

and he has built the nucleus of a very good squad - kos, per, gibbs, jenko, wilshire, arteta, cazorla, ox, pod, all show some fight and technical ability. TV5 on his day can be the dogs and i hope that Giroud will add to that list.

so what value would a new boss add ? - are the board going to fork out 25million each on a world class keeper and CB ? probably not. As much as we try, we can't afford a 25/30 million mistake like Mata (he was last season), Veron, carroll, torres, robinho, mutu, schevchenko....

my fear is that we'd end up with a coach with less talent and after a couple of 'big name signings' we'd end up worse off than we are now - and given the large number of bad decisions the board has made, why should i have any confidence at all that they appoint someone better than AW ???

imagine if we ended up with Pardew FFS.

[DB10GOONER]

so what value would a new boss add ? - are the board going to fork out 25million each on a world class keeper and CB ? probably not. As much as we try, we can't afford a 25/30 million mistake like Mata (he was last season), Veron, carroll, torres, robinho, mutu, schevchenko....

my fear is that we'd end up with a coach with less talent and after a couple of 'big name signings' we'd end up worse off than we are now - and given the large number of bad decisions the board has made, why should i have any confidence at all that they appoint someone better than AW ???

imagine if we ended up with Pardew FFS.

But we do not know what ideas a new coach may have. Not having a pop here mate but I don't know why you keep going back to the "Board won't pay out X amount" argument. Most of us know and accept that.

My point is that a new manager might have looked at the squad over the last few seasons (when Wenger so often killed our hope during transfer windows by publicly stating we DID NOT NEED to add players) and decided "ok, no extra money from the Board, but if I sell shit players like X, Y and Z then I can add up their wages/bonuses/etc and use THAT money to sign one really top class player in a key position".

Instead, what did we get? Wenger extended and improved the contracts of shit players X, Y and Z because his all-consuming ego just could not admit he got it wrong and they were crap players. As I said, it's about HOW a new manager would have/will spend what monies are available as much as about a Plan B or tactical knowledge.

And on the Plan B front and to be a bit crass about it, there is not one single currently workng PL manager that has gone to old shatford and gotten fucked 8-2. We got fucked 8-2 there because Arsene arrogantly sent out a seriously depleted team to play tippy tappy instead of being pragmatic and trying to grind out a draw.

[clockender1]

But we do not know what ideas a new coach may have. Not having a pop here mate but I don't know why you keep going back to the "Board won't pay out X amount" argument. Most of us know and accept that. .

no, no offence taken DB - to keep it short and simple, i see the problem as who is the new boss going to be ?

if you work on the idea that a top top manager - ferguson, mourinho, pep, klopp, del bosque, Van Haal, etc is not coming, then who are we left with that is a 'thinker' that's going to punch above his weight given the limited funds the board will give him - who is there ? who is left ?

sven ? capello ? O'neill, Southgate ?

i really don't believe the board will pick a good candidate who can improve us - even Wenger was David Dein's pick and not this lot's.

its not 'in arsene we trust', more 'in arsene we're stuck with' more like.

best of bad bunch imho.

[armchair]

But we do not know what ideas a new coach may have. Not having a pop here mate but I don't know why you keep going back to the "Board won't pay out X amount" argument. Most of us know and accept that. .

no, no offence taken DB - to keep it short and simple, i see the problem as who is the new boss going to be ?

if you work on the idea that a top top manager - ferguson, mourinho, pep, klopp, del bosque, Van Haal, etc is not coming, then who are we left with that is a 'thinker' that's going to punch above his weight given the limited funds the board will give him - who is there ? who is left ?

sven ? capello ? O'neill, Southgate ?

i really don't believe the board will pick a good candidate who can improve us - even Wenger was David Dein's pick and not this lot's.

its not 'in arsene we trust', more 'in arsene we're stuck with' more like.

best of bad bunch imho.

Are we seriously back to the AKB argument - "But who could possibly replace Arsene?"
And who says that a "top manager" wont join The Arsenal. Thats so defeatest its unreal and shows how far expectations have fallen with some gooners under the Wenger dictatorship.
Not that anyone is saying it has to be a "top manager".
No-one had heard of Wenker and the cry was George who? before they took over.

I'd take Moyes in a heartbeat. Or Guardiola or Rijkaard.
Frankly I'd do a deal with the devil himself to get the greedy, arrogant, stubborn, accountant bastards clutches off the club.

Dont be scared of change and use that flawed AKB argument to convince yourself that wenger is the best man for the job. FFs 7-8 years of abject failure, vanity projects and record-breaking defeats tells anyone with half a brain that Wenger is finished.

AKBs really depress and sadden me.

[g88ner]

no, no offence taken DB - to keep it short and simple, i see the problem as who is the new boss going to be ?

if you work on the idea that a top top manager - ferguson, mourinho, pep, klopp, del bosque, Van Haal, etc is not coming, then who are we left with that is a 'thinker' that's going to punch above his weight given the limited funds the board will give him - who is there ? who is left ?

Just out of interest, back in 1994 when we appointed Rioch as manager, how much did you know about Wenger? were you telling everyone in the pub that the answer to Arsenal's problems resided in the footballing backwater of Japan? - and how many supporter wish lists do you think he featured on? certainly not many! - and why? if knowledgeable supporters like you and I know so much about which managers would be a success at our club and which wouldn't, how did Wenger slip through the net and be such a success?

And back in 2008 when Jurgen Klopp was relegated with Mainz, was he on your wish list then? and how about Mourinho when he was translating geordie into Spanish under Sir Bobby Robson? or what about Guardiola? was he such an obvious choice when he was coaching the Barcelona B team? - probably not. And, of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg, because every "top manager" has to have a journey to the top.

The truth is, we (and the media) don't tend to consider someone a "top manager" until they've already proved themselves by winning things, by which point, they're probably unattainable. The key is to get them when they're about to ignite, like we did with Wenger, and Dortmund did with Klopp, and Porto did with Mourinho. All of these managers were given their chance by someone... it's about being the right club at the right time. And as one of europe's top 10 clubs, I'd say we're in a better position than most to attract these rising stars... assuming we can identify them.

You could be right, maybe there aren't better options out there, but you don't know that any more than I do, and if you live in fear of trying to improve things, and would rather settle for the bloke who has won nothing for 7 years because there might be worse out there, then I'd say that's a rather defeatist attitude.

Personally, I'm not advocating we get rid of Wenger - but your view that he's "the best of a bad bunch" doesn't really suggest he has your support... it's more that your scared of change.

[armchair]

no, no offence taken DB - to keep it short and simple, i see the problem as who is the new boss going to be ?

if you work on the idea that a top top manager - ferguson, mourinho, pep, klopp, del bosque, Van Haal, etc is not coming, then who are we left with that is a 'thinker' that's going to punch above his weight given the limited funds the board will give him - who is there ? who is left ?

Just out of interest, back in 1994 when we appointed Rioch as manager, how much did you know about Wenger? were you telling everyone in the pub that the answer to Arsenal's problems resided in the footballing backwater of Japan? - and how many supporter wish lists do you think he featured on? certainly not many! - and why? if knowledgeable supporters like you and I know so much about which managers would be a success at our club and which wouldn't, how did Wenger slip through the net and be such a success?

And back in 2008 when Jurgen Klopp was relegated with Mainz, was he on your wish list then? and how about Mourinho when he was translating geordie into Spanish under Sir Bobby Robson? or what about Guardiola? was he such an obvious choice when he was coaching the Barcelona B team? - probably not. And, of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg, because every "top manager" has to have a journey to the top.

The truth is, we (and the media) don't tend to consider someone a "top manager" until they've already proved themselves by winning things, by which point, they're probably unattainable. The key is to get them when they're about to ignite, like we did with Wenger, and Dortmund did with Klopp, and Porto did with Mourinho. All of these managers were given their chance by someone... it's about being the right club at the right time. And as one of europe's top 10 clubs, I'd say we're in a better position than most to attract these rising stars... assuming we can identify them.

You could be right, maybe there aren't better options out there, but you don't know that any more than I do, and if you live in fear of trying to improve things, and would rather settle for the bloke who has won nothing for 7 years because there might be worse out there, then I'd say that's a rather defeatist attitude.

Personally, I'm not advocating we get rid of Wenger - but your view that he's "the best of a bad bunch" doesn't really suggest he has your support... it's more that your scared of change.

g88ner I think you've just posted exactly what I said but more succintly and with a little less Wenger loathing.

[g88ner]

no, no offence taken DB - to keep it short and simple, i see the problem as who is the new boss going to be ?

if you work on the idea that a top top manager - ferguson, mourinho, pep, klopp, del bosque, Van Haal, etc is not coming, then who are we left with that is a 'thinker' that's going to punch above his weight given the limited funds the board will give him - who is there ? who is left ?

Just out of interest, back in 1994 when we appointed Rioch as manager, how much did you know about Wenger? were you telling everyone in the pub that the answer to Arsenal's problems resided in the footballing backwater of Japan? - and how many supporter wish lists do you think he featured on? certainly not many! - and why? if knowledgeable supporters like you and I know so much about which managers would be a success at our club and which wouldn't, how did Wenger slip through the net and be such a success?

And back in 2008 when Jurgen Klopp was relegated with Mainz, was he on your wish list then? and how about Mourinho when he was translating geordie into Spanish under Sir Bobby Robson? or what about Guardiola? was he such an obvious choice when he was coaching the Barcelona B team? - probably not. And, of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg, because every "top manager" has to have a journey to the top.

The truth is, we (and the media) don't tend to consider someone a "top manager" until they've already proved themselves by winning things, by which point, they're probably unattainable. The key is to get them when they're about to ignite, like we did with Wenger, and Dortmund did with Klopp, and Porto did with Mourinho. All of these managers were given their chance by someone... it's about being the right club at the right time. And as one of europe's top 10 clubs, I'd say we're in a better position than most to attract these rising stars... assuming we can identify them.

You could be right, maybe there aren't better options out there, but you don't know that any more than I do, and if you live in fear of trying to improve things, and would rather settle for the bloke who has won nothing for 7 years because there might be worse out there, then I'd say that's a rather defeatist attitude.

Personally, I'm not advocating we get rid of Wenger - but your view that he's "the best of a bad bunch" doesn't really suggest he has your support... it's more that your scared of change.

g88ner I think you've just posted exactly what I said but more succintly and with a little less Wenger loathing.

Yeah, I noticed Wenger and the AKB are hardly your favourite people

[clockender1]

You could be right, maybe there aren't better options out there, but you don't know that any more than I do, and if you live in fear of trying to improve things, and would rather settle for the bloke who has won nothing for 7 years because there might be worse out there, then I'd say that's a rather defeatist attitude.

Personally, I'm not advocating we get rid of Wenger - but your view that he's "the best of a bad bunch" doesn't really suggest he has your support... it's more that your scared of change.

oh i totally admit it - i've always been a defeatist as far as The Arsenal are concerned. back in the 1980's it was almost compulsory.

my point is that when we dug up Wenger from nowhere, and George from Millwall, we had a competant board. now we don't.( & Rioch did okay in his year i thought...)

am i wrong to be that scared that we'll pick a pile of pony, really ?

how is the board's track record recently - when I think about the move, the kits, the crest, the outrageous wages of bentdner, song and diaby etc. approved by this board, the quality players missed out on for the matter of 5-10k a week, exactly how am i supposed to be optimistic ?

i'd be more than happy for the board to throw money at mourinho, guardiola (i'd give my left nut for him actually) or Rijkaard, but as they don't throw money at anything other than mediocrity, and have shown zero football knowledge to boot, i just don't see it chaps.

unless guardiola has the fucking horn for The Arsenal, or Mourinho wants to get back at the chavs, i think we're buggered either way until we get a new board.